My name is Affe, and I'm a digihaulic.

laz said:

There is lots of merit in what is said above, but why must this subject come up time after time? This is a site devoted to Analog photography; would you go to www.The_Vatican.com and discuss the merits of Buddhism over Catholicism?

Maybe the solution is a permanent forum where those who wish to discuss and re-discuss (and re-discuss) the question of digital vs. analog can do so to their hearts content?

This wasn't a flame folks just an honest comment meant to provoke nothing but some thought.

-Bob

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I came here to discuss analog, but part of that dialogue is the fact that I have had much heavier training in digital technique. It does not mean that I prefer it, it just means that I know how to use it. I specifically stated that I did not want to start a flame war in the previous thread because I do not wish to go back and forth. I've had ad naseum conversations about the subject since I started using digital. Sorry if I came off a little stronger than I intended, I do not wish to provoke anyone. I party with film, I party with digital. Polaroid can come too.

jmdavis said:

I know many wedding and Newspaper photogs who have started shooting digital, but at the end of the day it all depends on the quality that you are willing to accept.

Mike Davis

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Great point Mike.

I agree with this totally. That is my whole point. If it were up to me, I'd be shooting LF for everything. In terms of practicality, digital is the fastest way to capture an image. And if you have a good enough digital for the project, why not use it. I shoot 35mm whenever I need slides or feel like playing with film. I'd love to work with larger format negs, but until now I really havent had the time or money to invest in view or mf systems.

laz said:

Okay, you're playing with fire now my boy! Step slowly back and just don't go there! <smiley face ommited>

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Wasn't meant to touch off a nerve.

On your earlier post you said you have used a "wet" darkroom before. So, how much more of the information do you really need from us to tap on your shoulder? It seems you've already got all you're asking for.

Meanwhile, for your theoretical concerns, read books like, "On Photography" by Susan Sontag, "Camera Lucida" by Roland Barthes, "Ways of Seeing" by John Berger, etc if you haven't. They might help answer some of your questions.

firecracker said:

It's okay to be either way or both, which I am, too. And this is not time for launching another analog v.s. digital war here. So let us allow to go find an exit plan instead (like those guys fighting in Iraq).

Your comments reminded me of the school I went years ago, and I see a lot of young people today feeling the same as you are feeling about analog photography, which they don't experience in their schools as much as they prefer. But to study photography in your level is perhaps to try on your own. One thing for sure is that you've already started walking on your own path.

With the experiences you have as far as I can understand, just find a ticket to go into a darkroom and use it with your own pacing. Get a film camera if you don't have it at this point and shoot film, develop it, and print the images you like to produce. Read the books mentioned on this thread along the way. And keeping doing that will certainly teach you a lot of what you feel you've been missing out, but because it takes time, you have to be patient.

To me, the traditional darkroom printing is different from the daylight darkroom printing. It's all about living in a moment and playing live with light. You deal with it when you're seeing something, taking a photograph, printing the image in the darkroom, and presenting it where you exhibit your work (and even in your sleep dreaming about it beforehand). You will know you really techinically can't go back where you were to fix or change things in the way you do with your digital photography.

My alalogy is making sushi with raw fish: You cook what you've just caught fresh, and there's no better time to eat it other than just now. It takes and shows sharp skills that are spontenious. So if you want to be a sushi chef, you will have to keep practicing on a regular basis!

Good Luck.

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I feel like I should clarify something. I have shot film, I have developed my own film, and have printed. I am far from refining these skills, however I've had multiple semesters of photography, but as a design major, I have focused on the digital and production end of things(I've invested $1000+ dollars during college for a digital system to not use it) To come clean on an issue, I am actually a dual photography/design major. Since the program is in its fledgeling stages, and did not offer essential resources, it relyied on personal vision(read:equipment). It was also more focused on fine art than production, an aspect that I wanted to explore. Design, however offered an outlet for photography production, and I grabbed ahold of it. This post started as seeking comprehensive resources for analog printing, as I feel I am undernourished in this area. Before I graduate, I want to ground my knowledge of analog mainstream and alt process. So there it is. I'm a freaking photo major who hasnt done much with film.

firecracker said:

On your earlier post you said you have used a "wet" darkroom before. So, how much more of the information do you really need from us to tap on your shoulder? It seems you've already got all you're asking for.

Meanwhile, for your theoretical concerns, read books like, "On Photography" by Susan Sontag, "Camera Lucida" by Roland Barthes, "Ways of Seeing" by John Berger, etc if you haven't. They might help answer some of your questions.

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I've used a wet darkroom, but need to hone my skills. I have a basic knowledge of a broad range of topics, and I'm hoping resources will help cement this previous training.

TheDigitalMonster said:

I've used a wet darkroom, but need to hone my skills. I have a basic knowledge of a broad range of topics, and I'm hoping resources will help cement this previous training.

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The Digital Master, do you have the equipment to "hone your skills" right now? What "resources" are you waiting to be delivered to you to "cement" your "previous training"? What's not included there?

You might want to just spend a couple of hours in the darkroom first, come back out, and ask questions more specifically. You know it's easier to learn how to swim once you're in the water trying, rather than just standing on the pool side and wondering when to dive in.

I'm just trying to help you out by trying to understand your statement first, but your writing is too broad, too general, and too abstract in a sense for me to grasp. For instance, you could state your darkroom experience(s) by describing what your did. What type(s) of enlarger, chemicals and paper did you use? What size(s) of prints did you make? How about your teacher(s) and classmates? Did they say anything about your prints? Do you remember any of that?

The way I got back to do my wet photography after being absent for a few years is actually starting from scratch; I had to build my own darkroom, buy the pieces equipment that were new to me, and keep gathering all the necessary information to get going. When major problems arise, I post questions here to get help from other photographers who don't seem to mind to spare their knowledge, but other than that, I'm on my own. And that's how most people are, I believe.

So, please post your questions more specifically if you feel they're not being answered sufficiently enough to you.

Firecracker

TheDigitalMonster said:

Before I graduate, I want to ground my knowledge of analog mainstream and alt process. So there it is. I'm a freaking photo major who hasnt done much with film.

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I've just got this seconds after I posted another comment regarding your background. Sorry about the time lag.

Now I see your situation more clearly. I've seen students graduating with double majors, major/minor combo, etc. And there are some who get out of their programs with their "Art in B.A." certificates, but I don't know how good or bad they are.

But this happens everywhere, and it just depends on what you want to use them and learn next. I would say the real life begins after that period, so it's great you've found this place to get ahead of the game.

If you think your school is not capable of offering the kind of skills you want to learn and earn, you might want to try other places that offer more sophsticated classes. Could be a night-class (credited or non-credited) in some other college in your town. In the U.S., community colleges are sometimes better for that and inexpensive(I know you're counting your days before your graduation, but...). At least, you could start searching this kind of class where you can use the facility and meet a good teacher who has his/her own portfolio and does exhibits.

I know a friend who went to a well-known school for film studies, but many years after her graduation she took no more than a few private textile classes somewhere else and now does clothing design for living. So, things are sometimes little tricky, but learning is always fun like your friend.

What I was trying to say is that you could start doing that outside of your school, and some people often end up doing that for various reasons. It doesn't matter what your major is in school if you want good prints. So, in order to refine your printing skills on film, you need to use a lab on a regular basis.

Books are only referrences and not much more unless you try.

TheDigitalMonster said:

I've used a wet darkroom, but need to hone my skills. I have a basic knowledge of a broad range of topics, and I'm hoping resources will help cement this previous training.

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The best way to hone your darkroom skills is to get in there and do it, not spend valuable time reading and responding to posts here on APUG. The time to post here is when you run into real problems in the darkrooms, then you'll realise the real strength and community spirit of APUG for there are many here who can and will help you in a very practical way. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't try to locate and read books but they are no substitue for time spent in the darkroom trying methods and techniques, making prints and most importantly making mistakes. When your confidence grows you will find the time to enjoy all aspects of this generally friendly and informative forum. By the way Welcome to APUG.

firecracker said:

If you think your school is not capable of offering the kind of skills you want to learn and earn, you might want to try other places that offer more sophsticated classes. Could be a night-class (credited or non-credited) in some other college in your town. In the U.S., community colleges are sometimes better for that and inexpensive(I know you're counting your days before your graduation, but...). At least, you could start searching this kind of class where you can use the facility and meet a good teacher who has his/her own portfolio and does exhibits.

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Unfortunately, the only time I have is to self-teach myself. If you notice, all of my posts save my initial few have been morning, late at night, or during other classes(shh ). I'm taking 15 credits, an internship, and working a part time job all at the same time. I don't have time for someone else to train me. If I have the information in hand, I can much further justify investing in darkroom equipment of my own. Which was the initial tilt of the thread.

And I must say thank you for being patient with such a analo-heathen.

Hey DM,

Sorry I didn't make it back till now; I didn't mean to drop a spoiler into your thread and run.

TheDigitalMonster said:

Wasn't meant to touch off a nerve.

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I really shouldn't have omitted the smiley face from my post or been so obtuse. By now I'm sure you've picked up that there have been APUG wars over this subject. I do believe that if we're not careful the next war could go nuclear and wipe us all out....(dramatic pause)(I love hyperbole!) The truth be told I, and I think most APUGers, have the same reasonable approach to digital as you do.

Now I absolutely have to know which university you attend! I am in the final year of paying (at 40k per) for my son's really fine education as a photo major at Drexel U. where the ground work of the entire program is film. So, give.

-Bob

Les McLean said:

The best way to hone your darkroom skills is to get in there and do it, not spend valuable time reading and responding to posts here on APUG. The time to post here is when you run into real problems in the darkrooms, then you'll realise the real strength and community spirit of APUG for there are many here who can and will help you in a very practical way. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't try to locate and read books but they are no substitue for time spent in the darkroom trying methods and techniques, making prints and most importantly making mistakes. When your confidence grows you will find the time to enjoy all aspects of this generally friendly and informative forum. By the way Welcome to APUG.

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I have been in the darkroom, perhaps I'm being do vague about the type of book I'm looking for. I still want a basic resource, but its the "why" of things that I would like to learn. WHY developer does what it does, WHY contrast filters do what they do, WHY certain films are better than others, WHY would you use a dev A instead of dev B in a given situation.

Basically, there are 4 areas I am concerned with that I would want the books to cover:

Section Depth (*****, 5 being most in depth)
Exposure:
Basic exposure *
Studio lighting **
Reciprocity failure ***
the Zone System ****
Using a Handheld meter ***
Medium Format Operation ***
Large Format Operation *****

Film/ Developing:
Basic Developing steps *
Explanation of different film types *
Explanation of how film works ***
Explanation of why chem A does what it does *****
Explanation of why chem B is better than a *****
Push/Pull Processing ***
The relationship between dilution and look ***
The rel b/t time and look ***

Paper/Printing:
Basic Printing **
Explanation of different papers ****
Explanation of why chem A does what it does *****
Explanation of why chem B is better than a *****
Enlarger types/benefits/drawbacks ***
Contact printing with negatives ****
Toning/Altering prints(selenium in particular) ***
"Refining" the print"(tonal range, contrast) ****
Dodging and burning technique **
The relationship between dilution and look ***
The rel b/t time and look ***

And just for kicks(I know these probaby wont be in a general book, but they interest me if anyone knows sites)
Digital hybrid processes ****
Gum Bichromate ***
Liquid Light **
Rockland Polytoner ***
Polaroid Neg Printing ****
Toy Cameras ****

Basically, take each rating and subtract it by 5 and that's how much experience I've had with it. I've dev'd with d76 1:1 non-deviated, sprint paper developer(Bromophen once), stop, fix on RC Kodak and Ilford papers(once on Ilford Fiber).

So I'm not a total analo-luddite

TheDigitalMonster said:

<snip>vague about the type of book I'm looking for<snip> Basically, there are 4 areas I am concerned with that I would want the books to cover:

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DM, I think any of the books recommended at the start of this thread would cover many of the subjects on your list.

One of the things always I do when I'm looking for a book is to visit a bookstore and page through some likely candidates. If you have no bookstore large enough to have a photo section visit Amazon.com where you can "browse" titles and even look at the table of contents of many books.

Here is the table of contents for Michael Langford's Basic Photography:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/024...6714541?_encoding=UTF8&p=S006&j=0#reader-page

laz said:

DM, I think any of the books recommended at the start of this thread would cover many of the subjects on your list.

One of the things always I do when I'm looking for a book is to visit a bookstore and page through some likely candidates. If you have no bookstore large enough to have a photo section visit Amazon.com where you can "browse" titles and even look at the table of contents of many books.

Here is the table of contents for Michael Langford's Basic Photography:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/024...6714541?_encoding=UTF8&p=S006&j=0#reader-page

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Thank you laz! looks like a good reference. Unfortunately, most of the bookstores in the immediate vecinity are barren of good texts. I've leafed through a couple that I've come across. They seem like good resources, but I thought asking those who are already steeped in analog endeavours would also be to my benefit.

TheDigitalMonster said:

but I thought asking those who are already steeped in analog endeavours would also be to my benefit.

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But of course! (just be wary of those Rodinal junkies, steeping in that tea tends to turn one into a zombi! )
-Bob

Sorry about having you to read my long posts since you've been busy. But I guess that has helped us communicate so far.

The Horenstein books mentioned earlier are pretty good. And again just spend as much time in the darkroom only if you can.

And one more thing. Can I ask what school you go to? If it's in the East Coast, is the name of your school the one that starts with "T"? Or it could be the affiliates of it, I don't know. You don't have to devote your time to answer this, but I'm just so curious!

pm'd

Ummmm....welcome