My journey with slide film: Advice needed

[keenmaster486]

So I have a lot of slide film I'm going to start shooting pretty soon.

Here's my current inventory (which I've been slowly building up over the last month )

Fuji Velvia 100 35mm (1)
Fuji Velvia 100 120 (1)
Fuji Velvia 100F 35mm (expiry date unknown, but it is expired - can't be older than 2003 though) (2)
Fuji Provia 100F 120 (expired 12/2007) (5)
Fuji Provia 100F 120 (1)
Fuji Provia 100F 35mm (1)
Kodak EliteChrome 100 35mm (expired ~2004) (1)

In addition, I have quite a bit of expired Kodachrome (a few of which were refrigerated and are pretty new), which I'm planning on sending to piratelogy for processing, just as soon as he perfects his Pirate K-14 process One of these Kodachrome rolls is 120 (also refrigerated, expiry date unknown). Some of it is 25 and some is 64 ISO.

I was fortunate to get all of the expired stuff super cheap; that's why I got it. I understand that there may be color shifts, especially with the stuff that may not have been refrigerated.

Cameras I have available right now:
35mm - my trusty Kodak Retina IIa rangefinder. I use this camera for almost all my 35mm stuff.
120 - Voigtlander Bessa I; I've used this only for B&W so far and I've been highly impressed. For me it strikes a perfect balance between features and ease of use, except that it doesn't have a rangefinder...
120 (well, 620, but I can respool) - Kodak Duaflex II (I like this little camera, it's quite simple and the resultant photos are surprisingly good... granted, I've only used it with B&W though. I like the idea of the square images.)

When I go home for the summer, I'll have more cameras available:
35mm - Regula Cita, German-made rangefinder
35mm - Pentax P30T SLR, with standard and telephoto lenses
120 - Kodak Brownie 2 (maybe it would be fun to run some Provia through this? I shot a roll of long-expired Ektachrome with this once and the results were surprisingly good, even with the magenta shift)
120 (actually 620) - Kodak Tourist II
120 - Pocket Kodak No. 1 (this one has a light leak somewhere. It's not horrible but it's there. It actually lent some character to the images when I ran a roll of B&W through it)


Alright, so I'm looking for advice on which cameras y'all would recommend using, what to shoot, when to shoot it, tips and tricks for shooting slide film, etc. It's my first time shooting color reversal for real, so I don't want to just walk into this blind.

Specific questions I have:

-For the expired film. None of it is more than ~15 years expired, most of it less. I don't know whether the expired Fujichrome was refrigerated. Some of the Kodachrome was refrigerated. So I'm hesitant to use the standard "1 stop per decade" rule because I don't know how the film was stored! What would be the consequences of, for instance, shooting a roll of the Provia expired 2007 at nominal ISO, supposing it wasn't refrigerated and needs a half or a full stop of overexposure?

-You'll notice none of the Fujichrome I got was 50 ISO. This was purely a cost-cutting move on my part; the 100 ISO stuff is generally cheaper in my experience. Some of it was the "100F" variant - what does the "F" mean and should I treat it any differently from the straight "100" type?

-I've never shot any Kodachrome before. Are there any tips you can give me on how to shoot this stuff? (supposing there's no effective difference between shooting expired Kodachrome on the Pirate-K14 process and the real deal ten years ago) Also, should I treat the 25 ISO stuff differently than the 64 ISO? For instance, certain subjects that look better with 25 than 64?

-Velvia vs. Provia. I know enough to tell the difference between these two at a glance - but is there a usage or subject matter where either of these films really shines?

-Some of my Kodachrome stock is from the late 70's - early 80's and was probably not refrigerated. Does anyone think I can expect color shifts, or should I only worry about exposure given that the dyes are added during processing?

EDIT: Another question...

-I'm looking at the Arista Rapid E-6 developing kit at Freestyle. I've been dabbling in developing B&W film by hand (I have a Super System 4), but of course E-6 is an entirely different animal and requires temperature control, etc... What is everyone's opinion on the quality of this particular kit and whether it's worth it or not?

Sorry for all the annoying questions; I just have no experience with this.

Thanks!

 

[Rudeofus]

-For the expired film. None of it is more than ~15 years expired, most of it less. I don't know whether the expired Fujichrome was refrigerated. Some of the Kodachrome was refrigerated. So I'm hesitant to use the standard "1 stop per decade" rule because I don't know how the film was stored! What would be the consequences of, for instance, shooting a roll of the Provia expired 2007 at nominal ISO, supposing it wasn't refrigerated and needs a half or a full stop of overexposure?

If you just start to shoot slide film, you should keep the number of variables at the absolute minimum, and shooting expired film is not helpful in this regard. Keep the expired film, adding another year to 15 year old film is not going to hurt it much more, but start with moderately new stock until you have a firm grasp of the process, proper exposure and a good handle on slide film's contrast.

-You'll notice none of the Fujichrome I got was 50 ISO. This was purely a cost-cutting move on my part; the 100 ISO stuff is generally cheaper in my experience. Some of it was the "100F" variant - what does the "F" mean and should I treat it any differently from the straight "100" type?

Fuji has three different emulsions under the Velvia name: Velvia 50, Velvia 100 and Velvia 100F. They are all contrasty and highly saturated, but there are subtle differences between them. Look for sample pics to learn which one is optimal for your subject matter.

-I've never shot any Kodachrome before. Are there any tips you can give me on how to shoot this stuff? (supposing there's no effective difference between shooting expired Kodachrome on the Pirate-K14 process and the real deal ten years ago) Also, should I treat the 25 ISO stuff differently than the 64 ISO? For instance, certain subjects that look better with 25 than 64?

Right now, there is no processing offered for Kodachrome media, and cross processing it in C-41 or E6 will give you blank slides with no subject matter. There are people who process it as B&W slides, but that's not the point of using it IMHO.

-Velvia vs. Provia. I know enough to tell the difference between these two at a glance - but is there a usage or subject matter where either of these films really shines?

Again, look for sample pics and match these with what you want to create. Artistic expression doesn't follow rule books.

-Some of my Kodachrome stock is from the late 70's - early 80's and was probably not refrigerated. Does anyone think I can expect color shifts, or should I only worry about exposure given that the dyes are added during processing?

See my above comment. With no processing offered for this film there won't be color shifts, because there will be no colors

-I'm looking at the Arista Rapid E-6 developing kit at Freestyle. I've been dabbling in developing B&W film by hand (I have a Super System 4), but of course E-6 is an entirely different animal and requires temperature control, etc... What is everyone's opinion on the quality of this particular kit and whether it's worth it or not?

Since you appear to just start with E6, I'd recommend you shoot a few rolls and have them developed by a commercial lab, until you got exposure and subject matter pinned down. Once you know you can create properly exposed slide film which meets your expectations in terms of subject matter rendering, then the time has come for home processing. Go one step at a time, and possible problems popping up on the way can be fixed quickly and efficiently. There is really no point in creating another "I just started, got some E6 rolls of unknown pedigree and a dev kit, and my slides look odd" thread series.

 

[MattKing]

It appears that Rudeofus hasn't been following the thread where piratelogy shows the colour transparency results he has been getting with experiments in processing Kodachrome .
But I would generally agree that you will spend your time much more wisely if you learn first on "proper", within date E6 film that is properly processed. With that knowledge and experience in hand, it may make sense for you to experiment with less dependable materials.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

I was brought up on Kodachrome and Ektachrome decades ago. Both were easy, carefree and fun to shoot. Then came the rude shock of starting to use E6; my first efforts in the early 1990s were, frankly, bloody awful. Years of study, trial, error, repetition and refinement got me to where I stand today, and mistakes and stuff-ups are rare. That is the benefit of intensive experience.

The foregoing comments about using E6 within-date, rather than expired, hold very true. Expired film, especially that stored in less than ideal conditions, can cast and lose speed; it is not the best choice for starting out. Film can be kept sealed in deep freeze for a while after expiry, but if you do not know how it has been stored, throw it and get fresh film.

Some observations:
Fuji Velvia 100 120 (1) *** Very contrasty, higher red channel than Velvia 50
Fuji Velvia 100F 35mm (expiry date unknown, but it is expired - can't be older than 2003 though) (2) *** Bin it. Modified Velvia 100-hybrid palette with a niggly mustard-yellow and beetroot-red palette. Shonky greens but the real villain was the "mustard". Unloved and unpopular and no surprise Fuji scuttled it a while back.
Fuji Provia 100F 120 (expired 12/2007) (5) *** This film is now 10 years old. Bin it.
Cool to neutral-toned emulsion, easier colour palette and better latitude than the Velvia offerings. Sometimes benefits from slight warming with an 81B or a Skylight 1B (light pink) filter. Good for portraiture and sunrise/sunset (foreglow/afterglow) photography as a worthy substitute to the more contrasty, strife-prone Velvias.
Fuji Provia 100F 120 (1)
Fuji Provia 100F 35mm (1)
Kodak EliteChrome 100 35mm (expired ~2004) (1) *** Give it a run as a pseudo-lomo experiment. It will have lost speed.

Chromes in 35mm format often cause a lot of grief for beginners because of the amount of contrast and tone squashed into a very small format. Using modern cameras with evaluative/matrix metering or refined hand-held metering technique can handle this (to a point!). The films are much easier to expose the larger the format (MF —> LF). They also deliver very good to excellent results in diffuse light (rather than bright sun with deep, dark shadows, and Velvia 100, along with Velvia 50, do not take to this very well at all). Velvia 100 is a very red-saturated emulsion requiring careful metering of contrast; in 35mm it can benefit from being manually bracketed at EI80 (slight overexposure), then brought back to ISO100 (same scene) and the results compared (fresh film, not expired film). Take notes of your exposures as slide film will show differences with even very small changes of exposure. You will be viewing the finished images on a lightbox, and having a running record of exposure notes will assist greatly in understanding what the film is doing in various scenes.

 

[Craig]

Forget about the Kodachrome. Even when the proper K14 process was available expired film had magenta casts and lost a lot of Dmax, so blacks came out as muddy greys and it went quite grainy. Of the colour slide films I think Kodachrome aged the worst before processing.

 

[keenmaster486]

Of the colour slide films I think Kodachrome aged the worst before processing.

Fascinating - I've heard the exact opposite!

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Forget about the Kodachrome. Even when the proper K14 process was available expired film had magenta casts and lost a lot of Dmax, so blacks came out as muddy greys and it went quite grainy. Of the colour slide films I think Kodachrome aged the worst before processing.

That sounds symptomatic of exposure to heat. In my student days I rarely had the time to have PKL processed immediately, as I did not live close to the city at the time — but out in the remote bush. Bicycle touring trips were routinely stocked in my front handlebar bag with a pallet of PKL and I journeyed in extremes of heat and cold, returning home and putting the exposed film in the fridge. When I did get to the city, it was dropped into the Kiosk and returned to me a week later. Truly, madly, deeply ... bloody marvellous! And nothing of the casts you speak of is evident in any of the 7 ring binders full of these slides. Just Kodachrome that looks like it was shot yesterday, but is in fact 35 years old!!

EDIT: My avatar is a Kodachrome slide from 1984; it is not me, but a bicycle touring friend. It is an unfortunate fact that he has not maintained this likeness to the slide over time...

 

[Craig]

That sounds symptomatic of exposure to heat.

I always kept my film frozen until I used it, but the Kodachrome that went Magenta on me was several years out of date.

 

[Fixcinater]

From your equipment list you seem to be OK with not quite standard or perfect photos. If that is true, I'd shoot all but the Kodachrome and just be happy with whatever it is you get back from the processors.

If you're looking for near perfection, then I would agree with Poisson's advice to not use most of it, at least until you have more of a handle on how E6 responds to light in general. Just depends how precise you want to be about the whole process.

Some people shoot expired slide film in a Holga or Diana and cross process it hoping for wacky, soft, technically "wrong" results.

 

[keenmaster486]

Some people shoot expired slide film in a Holga or Diana and cross process it hoping for wacky, soft, technically "wrong" results.

Well, this is the last thing I want to do.

I do want to get a handle on how E6 responds to light.

I should mention that I picked up a couple of early 60's SLRs, one Zeiss Contaflex and a Kodak Retina III. I'm going to try to use these for some of it.

EDIT: Also, I picked up some Velvia 50.

 

[FujiLove]

I bought a job lot of slide film last year, all out of date, some by 10+ years. I use an incident meter to make sure I'm metering for the highlights and process it myself in the kitchen. So far I haven't had any issues at all. I've been using Velvia 100, Ektachrome E100VS, Provia 100 and 400. Definitely don't throw that lovely film away! Just read about the simple ways to properly expose slide film and don't use it for anything critical without testing a roll. Remember that minor colour casts can easily be corrected at the scanning phase. I project all mine, and haven't noticed anything that detracts from the enjoyment of the photos.

 

[FujiLove]

^^^ I forgot to add, I shoot all mine at box speed and haven't noticed any exposure issues (apart from the ones I introduced by sloppy metering or bracketing shots).

 

[Leigh B]

Sorry for all the annoying questions; I just have no experience with this.

And with that huge laundry list of film and cameras you will never gain any expertise.

The operative word is ONE.

Choose ONE camera and ONE in-date film, and use ONLY that combination until you're so familiar with it that you can shoot in your sleep. ALWAYS shoot at box speed during this first phase. Once you have mastered the process to the point where you can get consistent uniform exposures ALL the time, you can expand your study.

That usually starts by varying the film speed to see what happens. Increase or decrease the shutter speed in half-stop steps. Always shoot both under- and over-exposed tests on a single roll. That gives overall average exposure which assures consistent development.

You can change cameras if you want.
ALL that does is muck up your exposures due to inconsistent shutter speeds.

- Leigh

 

[removed account4]

And with that huge laundry list of film and cameras you will never gain any expertise.

The operative word is ONE.

Choose ONE camera and ONE in-date film, and use ONLY that combination until you're so familiar with it that you can shoot in your sleep. ALWAYS shoot at box speed during this first phase. Once you have mastered the process to the point where you can get consistent uniform exposures ALL the time, you can expand your study.

That usually starts by varying the film speed to see what happens. Increase or decrease the shutter speed in half-stop steps. Always shoot both under- and over-exposed tests on a single roll. That gives overall average exposure which assures consistent development.

You can change cameras if you want.
ALL that does is muck up your exposures due to inconsistent shutter speeds.

- Leigh

leigh

stop being sensible
if keenmaster wants to use a variety of inconsistant shutter speeds
with a variety of possiblly ill stored films ( gotten cheaply ), with labs that will charge a fistful of $$ for processing
and obsolete kodachrome with a lone-pirate-processor who has hacked his own version of
the kodachrome process by all means let him have fun.
part of the fun of doing chromes and using expired film, obsolete processes (newly hacked)
and cameras that might be way off in their speeds is receiving slides back that are black or barely exposed
or perfectly exposed without any idea of what camera, what film, what iso/speed &c.
like your suggestion will be a learning experience so will this.
certainly your suggestion of one camera one film &c is sensible but there more to life than being sensible.

[added the next day]
hopefully people who have read this post of mine aren't scratching their head
wondering if i have bought a densitometer and use the zone system.

while i do think leigh is being sensible, and it might be correct to think
that using expired products is not the best use of one's time ... part of the fun
of photography is throwing caution to the wind and just having a good time.
the OP hasn't said anything about making his own c41 developer out of
bat's blood, hair dye, snake bones, virgin's tears and acetaminophen ...
its just $ and film ( and fun )

 

[Leigh B]

like your suggestion will be a learning experience so will this.
certainly your suggestion of one camera one film &c is sensible but there more to life than being sensible.

True. Forgive me for trying to be rational.

- Leigh

 

[MattKing]

I| would point out John that the OP did say he wanted to avoid going into using slide film "blind" - as fun as that might be.

 

[removed account4]

I| would point out John that the OP did say he wanted to avoid going into using slide film "blind" - as fun as that might be.

hi matt:

to be honest i don't know what that means anymore.
i'm sorry for sounding so confused.

again, to be honest, blindly honest ...
it is a fools chore to shoot any film beyond expyry date
beyond knowledge of previous ownership and without
knowledge of potential discomfort / knowledge of
loss o financial ruin/ being color dispositive film
i can not condone such insanity/

 

[Alan Klein]

And with that huge laundry list of film and cameras you will never gain any expertise.

The operative word is ONE.

Choose ONE camera and ONE in-date film, and use ONLY that combination until you're so familiar with it that you can shoot in your sleep. ALWAYS shoot at box speed during this first phase. Once you have mastered the process to the point where you can get consistent uniform exposures ALL the time, you can expand your study.

That usually starts by varying the film speed to see what happens. Increase or decrease the shutter speed in half-stop steps. Always shoot both under- and over-exposed tests on a single roll. That gives overall average exposure which assures consistent development.

You can change cameras if you want.
ALL that does is muck up your exposures due to inconsistent shutter speeds.

- Leigh

+1
Also, get good meter and keep notes.

 

[FujiLove]

Damn there's a lot of negativity on this thread. It's only slide film for goodness sake! I used to shoot and process it in the kitchen sink when I was thirteen years old and the chromes look exactly the same as when they came out of the tank, thirty five years ago. I don't think it's anything to be scared of or obsess over, as many forum threads will have you believe. I would recommend using an incident meter, but you probably don't have to if you have a camera with a modern meter and use your eyes and common sense. That Pentax P30 should do a fine job. (As an aside, there's a nice tutorial here about metering technique and it covers slide film: https://petapixel.com/2016/07/30/old-school-meter-expose-lighting-situation/)

Pick a camera, load a film, set your meter to box speed, process it according to the manufacturers instructions and you should have a lovely roll of chromes.

If not, then come back here and lots of people will be right along to help you fix it.

 

[LAG]

Pick a camera, load a film...

This!

 

[flavio81]

Cameras I have available right now:
35mm - my trusty Kodak Retina IIa rangefinder. I use this camera for almost all my 35mm stuff.
120 - Voigtlander Bessa I; I've used this only for B&W so far and I've been highly impressed. For me it strikes a perfect balance between features and ease of use, except that it doesn't have a rangefinder...
120 (well, 620, but I can respool) - Kodak Duaflex II (I like this little camera, it's quite simple and the resultant photos are surprisingly good... granted, I've only used it with B&W though. I like the idea of the square images.)
(...)
35mm - Regula Cita, German-made rangefinder
35mm - Pentax P30T SLR, with standard and telephoto lenses
120 - Kodak Brownie 2 (maybe it would be fun to run some Provia through this? I shot a roll of long-expired Ektachrome with this once and the results were surprisingly good, even with the magenta shift)
120 (actually 620) - Kodak Tourist II
120 - Pocket Kodak No. 1 (this one has a light leak somewhere. It's not horrible but it's there. It actually lent some character to the images when I ran a roll of B&W through it)

Commander Keen,

From the cameras above i'd only pick the Pentax P30T.
(Funny thing, i'm buying a P30 right now in 15 minutes; the seller is about to arrive).

All the other cameras might not have the shutters in very accurate condition, and perhaps you'll want to have a very accurate shutter to get a feeling of exposing slide films as best as possible.

The P30T has an electronic, quartz-timed shutter, so it should be pretty good. Also, the meter cell is GPD which responds well to light of different colors.

It appears that Rudeofus hasn't been following the thread where piratelogy shows the colour transparency results he has been getting with experiments in processing Kodachrome .

The Pirate-14 process!!
A small step for a man, a big step for the APUG community!

 

[keenmaster486]

From the cameras above i'd only pick the Pentax P30T.

Funny thing, since that post I've picked up two more cameras:

Zeiss Ikon Contaflex Beta
Kodak Retina Reflex III

Both of these have shutters pinpoint-accurate on the slower speeds as far as I can tell (for instance, the 1 second speed is precisely in line with my watch on both, something I've not seen yet in an old camera). The meters are also spot on, agreeing with each other and with my handheld meter.

What do you think of these?

The reason I ask is because the P30T is back in Idaho, and I'm here in college in Colorado so I'd have to have my parents ship it to me

 

[flavio81]

Funny thing, since that post I've picked up two more cameras:

Zeiss Ikon Contaflex Beta
Kodak Retina Reflex III

Both of these have shutters pinpoint-accurate on the slower speeds as far as I can tell (for instance, the 1 second speed is precisely in line with my watch on both, something I've not seen yet in an old camera). The meters are also spot on, agreeing with each other and with my handheld meter.

The 1-sec speed might be fine but this doesn't tell you anything about the top speeds!

I love all german-made Kodak cameras! But they wouldn't be my choice for the exxxxxpensive slide film.

 

[Prest_400]

Damn there's a lot of negativity on this thread. It's only slide film for goodness sake!

It's just because people are negative, you have to do some reversal to be Positive. Perhaps pouring a bit of blix on the thread would do.

I second the recommendation for the P30, as it is the most modern and controllable camera. Also, do not be intimidated because "slide is so critical". My first roll of slide film was Kodachrome during its last year and using the OM-1's centerweighted meter, didn't do bad. Meter properly, if metering reflective take care of some lighting situations and compensate, err towards highlights.

BTW, I just come from another forum talking cheap cameras. How about a 90's-2000's AF camera? Was discussing the prices of Nikon F90's, which were professional tools back in the day... now $50 with a lens. I shouldn't do this... Concentrate on one machine. Don't buy too much because you become disperse and don't know your cameras.
An acquitance of mine got into photography with a high end DSLR, 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8, a few days ago he purchased a 50mm 1.4. Conclusion: He's all over the place in a bad way, doesn't know how to properly use all the gear. What I learned? Too much choice can kill (I did study that on an academical level too!).

I understand too the point of being rather broke. Prioritize shooting one good stock (Provia 100F or CT precisa aka cheaper Provia 100F rebranded) as fresh film or well stored just expired will show you how it is.
Remember, more cameras mean more film to feed and process!