My Jobo's are on their last legs

L Gebhardt · Dec 11, 2009

Probably cheaper to buy up all the CPP and CPA units you can find on ebay. I've got an old tired CPP for when my ATL finally dies. I should probably look for a second spare to stash in the garage. At least in the short term this would get you through your February job.

acroell · Dec 12, 2009

CPP-2's are still available new in Germany, Fotoimpex carries them (p. 71 of their online catalog, 1290 Euros without VAT, about $1935, the lift is an additional 179 Euros). Of course those run on single-phase 220-240V, but that is easily remedied with a transformer bought off the shelf for 100-200$ (Powerbright is one company, there are others, too). When I lived in the US full time I ran my old German CPP-2 (from 1991) off a transformer without problems, even with fully loaded expert drums. The difference in frequency, 50Hz vs. 60Hz, did not seem to have any influence.
Of course shipping will be expensive, and one would need to figure that in.

Trond · Dec 12, 2009

Last year, when I was a little worried about the availability of spare parts for my ATL-1000, I wrote an e-mail to Jobo in Germany and asked them, and this is the answer I got:

---
JOBO ATL1000 spare-parts are still available and machines can be repaired by our service.
JOBO ATL-1500 and 4080 Colorprocessor CPP-2 are available ex stock.
---

So they had spare parts, and the ATL-1500 and CPP-2 available in stock, in 2008. I suggest that anyone looking for spare parts, or a new machine, contact them directly.

Trond

jgjbowen · Dec 12, 2009

Bob,

I want to mark this thread for future reference, but I also would suggest you contact a local university with an engineering program. I'd be willing to bet you can get a professor to turn a bunch of college students loose on your "challenge." It would be a wonderful exercise for the students, and you've got nothing to lose.

Hell, if you were in the good ol' U S of A, you could probably get the government to fund a few $Billion of research on your "challenge."

Good luck in your quest!

Bob Carnie · Dec 12, 2009

Acroel Trond
thankyou for your posts.

I am completely fed up with Jobo, I am so pissed off that they would abandon in NA their long time loyal customers.
I do understand that today at least I can find parts, I can keep my machine alive for a very unseeable future. But my reality is that I have one technician who can fix my machines here in Canada, by the time he shows up, diagnosis the problem , then go I go to Volkswagan and get reamed up the a#### for a windshield wiper motar, then get the technician back replace the motar, get reamed up the a### by the technician, start the machine up and two runs later the machine stops working.. Then phone the technicinan , wait a week for him to show up , he diagnosis the problem as a memory pad chip, get reamed up the a&&&& again, phone Omega Sattar, find out the chip will cost $350 USdollars and by the way it will take 6 weeks to get from Europe..

I have now run two runs of film, my Clients think I am a dork, and now I feel like a dork spending so much money trying to fix this f...888 machine.
I have bought three additional machines on the market, and guess what, they all have f###***** stupid problems associated with them.
This is no way to operate a business and I have to address these issues, I am commited to run film as long as Harmon produces and till the day my depends start filling up without my knowledge.. Hopefully my young staff members will get hooked on what we do and keep running film for another 50 years.

Therefore I have decided to build four bases with all available parts local, simple design and force my technicians to manually fill and drain the tanks.
For me this is the only solution, the thousands of dollars I have invested in reels and tanks should be good for another twenty years, I will only have to buy coupling cogs to attach the drum to the rollers and maybe that is not needed.

I also have decided to buy the modified sidekick from phototherm for smaller film runs and C41 and E6 capabilities

Paul Ewins diagnosis seems correct, except that I can survive with one shot manually filled and drained.
So folks he mentioned light engineering works people.. Who typically would be light engineering works.

and I do appreciate all the posts

Trond said:
Last year, when I was a little worried about the availability of spare parts for my ATL-1000, I wrote an e-mail to Jobo in Germany and asked them, and this is the answer I got:

---
JOBO ATL1000 spare-parts are still available and machines can be repaired by our service.
JOBO ATL-1500 and 4080 Colorprocessor CPP-2 are available ex stock.
---

So they had spare parts, and the ATL-1500 and CPP-2 available in stock, in 2008. I suggest that anyone looking for spare parts, or a new machine, contact them directly.

Trond

dwdmguy · Dec 12, 2009

I'm sad to say your message today strikes home. I am noticing quite a bit of the change we have had, no matter in U.S. / Canada / or abroad, that seems to scream "here's your price, take it or leave it" as well as "what are you going to do, just pay it and move on"

It's in our govt', almost every corporation built, the financial markets, etc., Not too long ago it seems that people built items and offered services that provided real value or a "real" service, now every single time I see something, be it ebay or from a large corporation such as an insurance policy etc., the first thing I look for is the small print and the "out" they have to rip me off. eBayer's are great for this as they like to post, when selling camera gear, "I don't know this equipment, but it looks perfect, but I have to sell as-is". It's a new scam that's growing leaps and bounds and that's why I feel much safer selling and/or buying here on apug. Yeah, for the very first time in years, I'm seeing the glass has half-empty now.

Your right, Jobo had a huge "seeding" here in North America and simply walked away when it did not make sense for them to continue. Why not at least even think about a training program and sub-contracting for repair and stock parts? It's very disapointing.
I take care of my unit every single time I use it just because I want to last well beyond my needs. I can do this because It's not a business and I have the time.

Bob Carnie · Dec 12, 2009

Just a note to say that if you have a auto lift arm , there are only so many lifts before the arm fails. My tech says it is around 36thousand lifts.
I have replaced three or four arms on one of my Alt2300 the oldest.
So no matter how well you treat your machine there is a point it will not lift and believe me , get a quote on a lift arm and installation , it is very sobering.

dwdmguy said:
I'm sad to say your message today strikes home. I am noticing quite a bit of the change we have had, no matter in U.S. / Canada / or abroad, that seems to scream "here's your price, take it or leave it" as well as "what are you going to do, just pay it and move on"

It's in our govt', almost every corporation built, the financial markets, etc., Not too long ago it seems that people built items and offered services that provided real value or a "real" service, now every single time I see something, be it ebay or from a large corporation such as an insurance policy etc., the first thing I look for is the small print and the "out" they have to rip me off. eBayer's are great for this as they like to post, when selling camera gear, "I don't know this equipment, but it looks perfect, but I have to sell as-is". It's a new scam that's growing leaps and bounds and that's why I feel much safer selling and/or buying here on apug. Yeah, for the very first time in years, I'm seeing the glass has half-empty now.

Your right, Jobo had a huge "seeding" here in North America and simply walked away when it did not make sense for them to continue. Why not at least even think about a training program and sub-contracting for repair and stock parts? It's very disapointing.
I take care of my unit every single time I use it just because I want to last well beyond my needs. I can do this because It's not a business and I have the time.

Tom Kershaw · Dec 12, 2009

Bob,

I use my Jobo ATL-2300 a few times a week rather than several times every day, and I'm still concerned about its future longevity; for example, I have the VW circulation pump running from a separate 12V power supply as for some reason my Jobo unit (purchased used) has never been able to switch on the pump. I don't need to tell you the automation and consistency makes a big difference. At the moment I could go back to processing all my black & white roll film through Paterson tanks and send off colour film but I don't relish the thought of it.

Tom

Kimberly Anderson · Dec 12, 2009

I think there should be a new seperate JOBO forum.

I have never heard of the VW circulation pump nor the BMW wiper motor.

Mods????

Renato Tonelli · Dec 12, 2009

I dread the death of my Jobo(s) and I don't depend on them for business. I don't know what alternatives there are. I wish someone with the necessary know-how would come up with a processor that could use Jobo's tanks, even if it required some additional adapter. Maybe a company like Darkroom Automation may be interested in finding a solution.
The post on the LF Forum shows a possible alternative to the electronic components.

spoolman · Dec 12, 2009

my jobos are on their last legs

If you are looking for electronics,switches and motors of all shapes and sizes as well as other bits and pieces,here in Toronto there is a place called Active Surplus on Queen Stree.t West,just east of Spadina on the south side and they are ado-it -yourselfers paradise.Maybe you can find replacement components there?.

Just my two cents(Canadian) worth.

Doug

dr5chrome · Dec 13, 2009

..much luck in getting this resolved. All operations like ours must find the means to keep our machines running.. For negs, rotary is the only quality way to go. This is a problem that we had to overcome as well with equipment. I found that the jobo machines were just too much of a problem, both for parts and reliability. We ended up modifying WING-LYNCH processors. This company is also out of business but the processor is better suited to be modified with many off-the-shelf-parts.

BTW there is Dave Smith out in California. he has many parts for the jobo machines. If fixing is not what you have in mind he might be able to direct you to a solution better than anyone. Tell him I said hello.

regards

dw

Bob Carnie said:
A sad day indeed, I will need to put to rest my Jobo's for good in the coming year. Parts are becoming impossible to get , service is non existant.
My Alt 2300's have given me years of fantastic use and they owe me nothing.

I want to continue with film processing and I still want to use all my Jobo drums , reels that I have thousands of dollars invested in.

I am looking for a geek/master tech head , here on APUG that I can commission to build me a rotary platform that can hook up to all my drums, It must mimic the agitation that an Alt2300 does at two different speeds.
We will hand fill and drain rather than the auto feature of the 2300 design so I am really looking for a base, programable timer and a connection that will hold the various tanks up to expert drums.
In fact I will need up to 4 bases if the budget permits. Right now one working model will do.
Parts must be North American, local to Toronto preferrably, I do not want to be looking for exotic plastic devices.

I have 5 thumbs on each hand and though I know what I want , I cannot make this device if my life depended upon it.

If this is a project someone here is interested in persuing please email me at bob@elevatordigital.ca.
I do know about Joboman, I do know about Omega Sattar, I am not trying to fix the 2300 anymore , I want to replace the base and work a bit more manually.

Bob Carnie · Dec 13, 2009

Thanks Doug
I will look into Active Surplus or at least someone who can figure out the needs will.

spoolman said:
If you are looking for electronics,switches and motors of all shapes and sizes as well as other bits and pieces,here in Toronto there is a place called Active Surplus on Queen Stree.t West,just east of Spadina on the south side and they are ado-it -yourselfers paradise.Maybe you can find replacement components there?.

Just my two cents(Canadian) worth.

Doug

Bob Carnie · Dec 13, 2009

Ok

So a friend of mine who may chirp in here came up with a possibility that maybe some of you can put your noodles on and see the possibiltys.

I plan to have my chems in a water bath in 1litre stainless steel containers to keep them at proper temp before starting the process.
I believe that a timer system can be designed or modified that uses all NA parts that are readily available.

Here is his two cents... Use a lathe as the rotating device to agitate the film, it would need a coupling device added to it so the Jobo tanks can be attached to it.
The base can be any length as long as the tubes can rotate..
I plan to separate colour film to 30x40inch size Black and White seps for multiple register alternative prints, and will have 4 tubes made for the CMYK film separations..
The need for all these machines to run exactly the same should be obvious therefore I think this is out of my league as far as putting it all together.

What do you think about a lathe????????

BTW I do plan on buying a sidekick from Phototherm to run the small runs of BW, C41 and E6. They are built for this and are in New Jersey and the owner is a good guy.

Bob Carnie · Dec 13, 2009

Wing Lynch was going to be my salvation , then they went out of business, so I got a bit nervous as the WL technician for Ontario lives 100 miles away and now represents Chromira so good luck getting any attention from him.

I really at this point am not thinking about fixing the Jobo , I have a Alt 3 that works for now and I am going to put all my energy solving the larger picture which is how can I process all films to my satisfaction.

I at one point was going to modify a Refrema to take larger tanks to hold 30x34 sheets of film and paper and run everything through this device. It really is a good idea for all applications but the quote I got was over $120K and I really need to be a busier shop to see the return.

dr5chrome said:
..much luck in getting this resolved. All operations like ours must find the means to keep our machines running.. For negs, rotary is the only quality way to go. This is a problem that we had to overcome as well with equipment. I found that the jobo machines were just too much of a problem, both for parts and reliability. We ended up modifying WING-LYNCH processors. This company is also out of business but the processor is better suited to be modified with many off-the-shelf-parts.

BTW there is Dave Smith out in California. he has many parts for the jobo machines. If fixing is not what you have in mind he might be able to direct you to a solution better than anyone. Tell him I said hello.

regards

dw

Photo Engineer · Dec 13, 2009

Bob;

The back and forth rotation is essential, so if you use a lathe, it must have this same type of reversal in the rotation. If you keep going in one direction, you will get uneven development.

PE

Bob Carnie · Dec 13, 2009

My lack of knowledge of lathes , Are there units with reversable motars?
Or are there Stepper Motars that are reversable?
Come on Ron ,jeezz I know you have the answer , you are just playing this out for the rest of the day , this is cruel of you.
I do need the back and forth as well different speeds for different process.

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

The back and forth rotation is essential, so if you use a lathe, it must have this same type of reversal in the rotation. If you keep going in one direction, you will get uneven development.

PE

John Koehrer · Dec 13, 2009

I think you would have to modify the lathe to reverse wouldn't you? If you try that route, think about an inexpensive woodworking lathe for a prototype. You don't need the precision and complexity of a metalworking lathe, in practice you would need only the drive end and rails.
Metalworking lathes use a transmission to reverse, not the motor. A DC motor on ja woodworking lathe can be reversed by switches.

Rather than gearing, use cogs & cogged drive belts except for the engagement of the drum.
The Jobo uses a reversing switch activated by a finger on the drum, it may be simpler to devise a timing device & eliminate the physical switch. Robot marketplace has a variety of belts/cogs, motors etc.

Also check to see if the local high school or university has a robotics club. The only real difference would be application.

I think the easiest part would be the set up of a lathe, hard part in my mind is linking to the drum & reversing it.

You might also try one of the robotics sites to see if there's anyone local that might give you some ideas.

Photo Engineer · Dec 13, 2009

Bob Carnie said:
My lack of knowledge of lathes , Are there units with reversable motars?
Or are there Stepper Motars that are reversable?
Come on Ron ,jeezz I know you have the answer , you are just playing this out for the rest of the day , this is cruel of you.
I do need the back and forth as well different speeds for different process.

Bob;

IDK if there are reversable lathes. I've only seen them run in one direction. OTOH, I assume that there are because during tapping for screw threads, you must back the tap off the item you are working on which requires a reversal of direction I would think.

There are reversable stepper motors. I have two. However, mine are rather slow and move in a jerky fashion (steps, naturally). I've never played with the circuit to see what they can really do. So, they might be tunable or you surely could find one that works.

ME is outside - way outside my field. I know what it must produce, but not how to get there. I don't know the equipment well enough.

Sorry.

PE

Richard Wasserman · Dec 13, 2009

AC motors can be reversed, see: http://www.mcmaster.com/#motor-switches/=4wykv3

Guillaume Zuili · Dec 13, 2009

Bob,
Just link one bicycle on each side of the Jobo. Have your 2 assistants pedal, one for left, one fore right.
You in the middle with drums for the cycle's beat ! (tribute to Charlton Heston..) And a stick if they are too slow !

Boom ! Left !
Boom ! Right !

Pre-Wash speed ! Pyro Speed ! Attackkkk !!!!!!

G.

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

The back and forth rotation is essential, so if you use a lathe, it must have this same type of reversal in the rotation. If you keep going in one direction, you will get uneven development.

PE

Photo Engineer · Dec 13, 2009

Both DC and AC motors can be reversed, but AC reversal is much more complex than DC reversal.

PE

Bob Carnie · Dec 13, 2009

Listen Pretty Lith Boy

There has to be one wisenheimer in every group.
This is a really serious matter, I think you should leave this for the folks with brains and go our and look for Jerry.
Bob

Guillaume Zuili said:
Bob,
Just link one bicycle on each side of the Jobo. Have your 2 assistants pedal, one for left, one fore right.
You in the middle with drums for the cycle's beat ! (tribute to Charlton Heston..) And a stick if they are too slow !

Boom ! Left !
Boom ! Right !

Pre-Wash speed ! Pyro Speed ! Attackkkk !!!!!!

G.

jslabovitz · Dec 13, 2009

It seems there are two directions here:

1. Simple: A Uniroller-like drum roller with a direct-drive, reversible DC motor, and a couple of current choices to affect motor speed. However, getting controllability or repeatability would probably be difficult. You'd need a motor that ran slow enough for agitation purposes, and you probably don't want the complexity of gears or belts. You'd also need a power supply that had the appropriate current selectors and switches and/or timers.

2. Flexible: A Jobo-like tank rotator, also with a direct-drive motor. But as several folks have pointed out, a stepper motor would be more appropriate. I'm sure there are motors that have a good enough resolution & precision to result in decent, repeatable agitation. Driving the stepper is more complicated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper_motor), but you get the benefits of higher precision and more torque at lower speeds than regular DC motors, so that would be more appropriate to agitation.

There's a wonderful electronics supply house in Boulder, Colorado, called Sparkfun. They have both a stepper motor (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9238) and a small controller card (Dead Link Removed). The controller card provides both the right voltage to the motor (from a supply of 7-30VDC, depending on needed torque) and also acts as the gateway to move the motor. The motor controller simplifies the interface to the motor by providing two inputs: one to step the motor, and one to set the direction of the step. For example, if the motor is a 100-step motor, then to turn the tank one full rotation in one second would mean issuing 100 steps at 1/100th of a second interval.

Clearly, that's not something a person would do, so usually one would add a small microcontroller (such as the Arduino, Dead Link Removed) to handle this logic. The Arduino is easily programmable, and it would be fairly simple to write a small program to do agitation at certain rates for certain times. The Arduino has the benefit of having a USB port on it, so its programs could actually be very simple, and take commands from a nearby laptop or other PC if necessary.

The cost of the motor, motor controller, and microcontroller would be about $60.

A caveat: I don't own a Jobo or Uniroller, and have never even used one, nor have I actually built a stepper motor system, so I don't really know what I'm talking about. However, this would be a fun project to work on!

--John

Bob Carnie · Dec 13, 2009

John and others

Keep the ideas coming , I really appreciate this help.

I do have a techno geek/gearhead who was factory trained at Jobo, Durst and Cibachrome- colenta. He is the guy that has kept my machines alive all these years. We are at a stage where they owe me nothing but keeping the tanks and reels in production makes much sense to me.

I am going to give him all and every idea posted here and let him figure out the final product.
Once we have made a prototype and then the 4 devices I wil make available all our schematics, drawings and sources for those of you using Jobos now and still want to keep your tanks in the future and have interest in building your own.

My Jobo's are on their last legs

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