My First Medium Format - What Should It Be?

KN4SMF · Apr 4, 2019

The Mamiya M645 was the first of its kind. I remember working in a camera store when it first came out. It was pretty much of a hit. And while there are other brands of higher price and quality, there is not a soul on this earth who can honestly disparage the name Mamiya/Sekor. Good stuff. One of those things in life where you can't go wrong, and don't hve to throw your whole wallet at it.

MattKing · Apr 4, 2019

To avoid left-right reversal, you need either an accessory prism finder, or failing that a penta-mirror finder like the one built into the Mamiya 645e.

runswithsizzers · Apr 4, 2019

guangong said:
Kowas are noted for their unreliability. With some searching you can get a Hasselblad 500C or CM body for about $300+-, and an80mm lens for another $150. I did. Try KEH ugly classification. A Russian prism finder will work. You will never need another MF camera. I wouldn’t judge TWR cameras by Mamiya. Look at Minolta, or, though more expensive, Rolleiflex.
I would try to hold and play with a camera before buying. In my opinion, the cameras on your list are kind of klunky to handle. Of course, this is one man’s opinion, and you may have a different reaction. That’s why there was more than one camera manufacturer.

Yeah, I kinda looked at Hassleblads, but probably out of my league.

What would you recommend that is not so klunky to handle?

Yours is the second suggestion that I handle some cameras before deciding, but I don't know how to make that work. Where am I going to find some of these old cameras to look at? There is one camera store in my town, but I've never seen any medium format film cameras in there. Where else should I look?

KN4SMF · Apr 4, 2019

Goes without saying you need the eye-level finder with a 6 x 4.5 camera, unless you want to shoot everything in landscape mode. It's the eye level finder that makes the camera the handy-dandy thing, almost like shooting 35mm. I honestly don't know if the eye level finder fixes the left-right situation, but you learn to deal with that the first 5 minutes with any camera. that very quickly becomes a non-issue. Now view cameras and upside-down are another matter.

Kino · Apr 4, 2019

The Pentax 645 is a superb camera, but you mentioned weight as being a primary concern .

The camera with even 1 additional lens, is hard to lug around for an extended period of time.

If you are willing to put forth the effort, it is wonderful .

Edit: wait, I was thinking of the 67... Nevermind!

James Bleifus · Apr 4, 2019

runswithsizzers said:
Yours is the second suggestion that I handle some cameras before deciding, but I don't know how to make that work.

I also think that you should handle the cameras on your list if possible, and I have no idea how to make that work. The camera that I love isn’t going to be the camera that you love.

When I first saw this thread I was going to suggest the Mamiya C220 with the eye-level finder (which is what I was out shooting with this morning and grinning from ear to ear). The Mamiya is my bag, but it’s not yours. That’s OK. Luckily for all of us there are lots of cameras to choose from.

I’m also very fond of my Bronica S2A. I’ve had it less than a month and have put fewer than 20 rolls of film through it, so I can’t vouch for its durability. If I just went from the internet reviews I’d be terrified of it, but so far the Bronica has been a strong performer. I like it much more than I did my Hasselblad or my SQA or ETRS. For whatever reason I find holding the S2A more pleasant to hold than the Hassy. ‍

There was no way for me to know that until I held it.

Cheers!

AgX · Apr 5, 2019

runswithsizzers said:
I'm confused. When you say Leica-style do you mean like their medium format digital camera (SLR-style)? Or do you mean Leica's rangefinder-style 35mm film cameras?

I knew that question would come, as we lack proper terms on this issue...

Basically there are two styles of SLRs (even both in 35mm and in rollfilm format):

-) of longitudinal body, derived from the Leica rangefinder body
-) of b-form derived from the Hasselblad (which again is based on german models)

campy51 · Apr 5, 2019

Here is the camera I had before my Hasselblad. You hold it with your right hand which is better for right handed people because of the weight and the film advance lever is right there.

iandvaag · Apr 5, 2019

Warning: hard sell incoming.

I will tell you one of film photography's best kept secrets: medium format stereo (known among practitioners as MF3D).

Get a Sputnik camera off ebay for about $100 and join the yahoo MF3D group. Lots of people there who are willing to help you get started. You will take images that will blow your socks off. Regular photography often can bring back strong memories of a place. Medium format stereo makes you feel like you are actually standing back in that place. There's nothing like it.

I know you said no twin lens reflex as your top priority, but this is a tri lens reflex, and I strongly urge you to reconsider. The Sputnik doesn't seem impressive at all, and as far as cameras go, it's not. But you have never seen images like the images that come out of a Sputnik. For about $100, what have you got to lose? You'll also need to pick up a handheld viewer which should run you an additional $100. It's lightweight as well. A tripod is pretty much a must, and a light meter as well, since you need to use slide film to get viewable images.

Theo Sulphate · Apr 5, 2019

runswithsizzers said:
...
Where am I going to find some of these old cameras to look at? There is one camera store in my town, but I've never seen any medium format film cameras in there. Where else should I look?

These days the best place to sample a wide variety of cameras is at swap meets - usually hosted by a photo or camera club. Unfortunately, such events seem to be limited to large metropolitan areas.

Camera stores are sometimes aware of these events.

RauschenOderKorn · Apr 5, 2019

So you want 6x6, light, cheap? Go with a folder, e.g. the Zeiss-Ikon Super Ikonta 532/16.

It does not have a TTL-viewfinder, but as I said: cheap, light, MF and has premium optics available. I picked one up for 80€ in perfect condition (exception: long times are sticky) and regularly use it.

baachitraka · Apr 5, 2019

- Pentacon Six TL (CLA'd): I think the film spacing problem is over-blown and it works if a simple procedure is followed.
- 120mm Biometar, 180mm Sonnar or 80mm (Mark III) are pure gems to posses.

- Prisms: http://www.pentaconsix.com/Prisms.htm
- Focusing Screens: http://www.pentaconsix.com/ViewAids.htm

Pentode · Apr 5, 2019

James Bleifus said:
I also think that you should handle the cameras on your list if possible, and I have no idea how to make that work. The camera that I love isn’t going to be the camera that you love.

I’m very fond of my Bronica S2A. I’ve had it less than a month and have put fewer than 20 rolls of film through it, so I can’t vouch for its durability. If I just went from the internet reviews I’d be terrified of it, but so far the Bronica has been a strong performer.

A perfect example of why it’s great to try these things in person if we can; I had nothing but admiration for my S2a. Extremely well made, durable and the Nikkor lenses were fantastic. Sadly, I never really got along with it because of it’s heavy weight and enormously loud mirror. Great camera, but not great for me.

RauschenOderKorn said:
So you want 6x6, light, cheap? Go with a folder, e.g. the Zeiss-Ikon Super Ikonta 532/16.

It does not have a TTL-viewfinder, but as I said: cheap, light, MF and has premium optics available. I picked one up for 80€ in perfect condition (exception: long times are sticky) and regularly use it.

I love MF folders but I didn’t recommend them to the OP simply because they’re mechanically fussy. Frames get bent, bellows leak, etc... Folders are the oldest of the MF stock available and, as such, are the hardest to find in good working order. I happen to love them but I don’t think they really meet the OP’s criteria. Not as closely as the models he already listed, anyway.

baachitraka said:
- Pentacon Six TL (CLA'd)

I thought of this, too, but “CLA’d” is definitely the most important thing here. Unless purchased from a known, reliable source former communist block cameras can be nothing but headaches. Once they’re thoroughly worked over they can be pretty reliable cameras but the more modern Japanese cameras the OP has listed really are likely to be less trouble in the long run.

Overall, I think the list in the first post is pretty spot-on.

tezzasmall · Apr 5, 2019

If it's of any help, Bob Carlos Clarke used a 645 Pentax quite a lot

Terry S

Lanline · Apr 5, 2019

Best to try to examine as many cameras as possible before buying. Ergonomics can play a role as to whether or not you bond with the camera. Some cameras like the KoniOmega Rapid and Bessa 667 III are like noise to my shooting process. Others, the the Hasselblad/Bronica disappear and I am unware of the camera. There is no ideal camera other than what feels good in your hands and captures your vision.

winger · Apr 5, 2019

runswithsizzers said:
I am surprised no one seems to care much about the Pentax 645.

I completely love mine. I have the P645N. I haven't priced them on the used market (I got mine new when they first came out), so I don't know where they fit in price-wise. The AF lenses are likely more because they fit the digital bodies as well. While it is landscape view, it has two tripod holes - one for horizontal and one for vertical. It takes AA batteries (6 of them) and they last awhile if you're not using the autofocus. I mostly use a handheld incident meter, but the in-camera meter is good. It also imprints the settings on the rebate of the film, which I've found handy. I can handhold it with the 75mm lens, but not with the 120mm. It's better on a tripod. It is not a quiet camera - the film advance is louder than the shutter. It can do intentional multiple exposures, too.

mgb74 · Apr 5, 2019

mshchem said:
+1 or Bronica ETRSi with the speed winder and non metered prism. Super inexpensive, available, shoots like a 35mm. 645 negative is just big enough. 15 shots per roll.

I'd look for an ETRS. The "i" version just added better flash sync (I think).

Overall, the Bronica ETRs (or later model) fits your requirements very well. Inexpensive - for what you get - and readily available. Get one with the speed grip and non-metered prism. Add a metered prism later if you decide you want. Take off the speed grip (and crank by hand) and you have a very compact MF slr.

And 645 allows you to use a 6x6 enlarger if that's what you've got.

BrianShaw · Apr 5, 2019

iandvaag said:
Warning: hard sell incoming.

I will tell you one of film photography's best kept secrets: medium format stereo (known among practitioners as MF3D).

Very interesting option!

mshchem · Apr 5, 2019

mgb74 said:
I'd look for an ETRS. The "i" version just added better flash sync (I think).

Overall, the Bronica ETRs (or later model) fits your requirements very well. Inexpensive - for what you get - and readily available. Get one with the speed grip and non-metered prism. Add a metered prism later if you decide you want. Take off the speed grip (and crank by hand) and you have a very compact MF slr.

And 645 allows you to use a 6x6 enlarger if that's what you've got.

I agree, the i version added ttl flash. The ETRS is got a little better build quality, metal instead of plastic levers. Very affordable. If you have money the later mamiya 645 Pro models are beautiful, but 3x the cost of the Bronica .

hsandler · Apr 5, 2019

mgb74 said:
I'd look for an ETRS. The "i" version just added better flash sync (I think).

Overall, the Bronica ETRs (or later model) fits your requirements very well. Inexpensive - for what you get - and readily available. Get one with the speed grip and non-metered prism. Add a metered prism later if you decide you want. Take off the speed grip (and crank by hand) and you have a very compact MF slr.

And 645 allows you to use a 6x6 enlarger if that's what you've got.

+2 for Bronica ETRSi for 645 format. The "i" version adds more than TTL flash support. It adds B, and shutter speeds timed out to 8s and most importantly, mirror lock up for long exposures or macro work. All the Bronica ETR series are so inexpensive that you might as well get the "i" as it's the most featured and bodies tend to be newer. If you get the non-metered prism and the speed winder grip the ergonomics are fantastic and the kit not too heavy.

The Bronica SQ-A or SQ-Ai is almost the same thing in 6x6, and is what I recommend for people that like a waist-level finder. But since the OP prefers a prism for an unreversed view and is concerned about weight, the ETR series is just a bit smaller, lighter, less expensive, economical on film, and otherwise identical.

Compared to the Mamiya or Pentax 645 alternatives, the main difference is the Bronica ETR series uses battery-dependent leaf shutters in each lens, not focal plane in the body. The Seiko shutters seldom fail and the batteries are a common type still available today and long-lasting. The weak point of Bronicas are the light seals of the backs and sometimes the pin mechanism that synchs the film counter and wind mechanism to the body.

Lots of samples from the ETRSi kit I used to have here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsandler/albums/72157629087990190

macfred · Apr 5, 2019

mgb74 said:
I'd look for an ETRS. The "i" version just added better flash sync (I think).

Overall, the Bronica ETRs (or later model) fits your requirements very well. Inexpensive - for what you get - and readily available. Get one with the speed grip and non-metered prism. Add a metered prism later if you decide you want. Take off the speed grip (and crank by hand) and you have a very compact MF slr ...

This!

I have the ETRSi (with WLF and metered prism; the f/2.8 50mm, the F/2.8 75mm and a nice f/3.5 105mm lenses). Nice kit for a reasonable price.
--
The Bronica S2a is a real beauty - those Nikon lenses have a good reputation too - be prepared for deteriorated finder foam which must be replaced.
There's a WLF and a TTL Pentaprism for the S2a.

Paul Howell · Apr 5, 2019

I have a rather complete Kowa kit, 2 bodies and 5 lens, but would not recommend. I have not any repair issues, just cleaning and lub every 4 or 5 years, but very few shops will repair a Kowa. I would really think about a 6.45 system, either Mamyia or Bronica, although your needs are minimal both are complete systems that you can grown into depending on your future needs, buy a second body for parts.

JPD · Apr 5, 2019

I find it interesting that the reversed image in the waist level viewfinders annoys some people. I have used TLR cameras for decades and don't even think about the image being reversed in the finder. The image on a view camera's groundglass is upside down, and that's also something I don't think about when I'm using one, but is reminded of when I read on forums. My guess is that my brain adapted to the reversed image when I was playing around with my grandfather's Yashica A when I was a child. It's also the same with the controls, I adapt quickly to them. But I wear eyeglasses, and find tiny eyepieces on old rangefinders irritating.

Luckless · Apr 5, 2019

Waist level finders are rather hit and miss - I love them and find them wonderfully useful for getting images at a slightly different viewpoint than is often seen at times. - For no additional effort I am shooting lower than normal, and for a little added effort I can shoot from full on ground level [without having to lie down] or shoot from 'over head' by holding the camera 'upside down'. [However, shooting 'from eye level' does leave me holding the camera sideways, and gets some weird looks...]

However, my second favourite camera after TLRs has become simple scale focus folding cameras. Dead simple to use, and can be had for a song.

However they do seem to be at higher risk of having been given a rough life - So a careful inspection on everything is important. [But that's true for any old film camera I guess.]

I had recently picked an 'okay looking' one up for like $20, with what I thought was nothing more than a small ding on the back cover. Hadn't realized till after I got it home that it had actually been hit hard enough to also dent the film-plate inside. The sad part is that the springs are in so much better condition than the other folder I had been using...

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 5, 2019

If you're willing to go with a system without lens interchangeability, you might consider a rangefinder folder. My wife gave me an old Zeiss Super Ikonta IV and the lens is sharp. The only drawback is the mechanical shutter for me. But I've traveled with it to Europe and Asian and it's a fine camera. I think most of them come with an 80mm lens. Here's a gentleman the specializes in folders.
https://certo6.com/

My First Medium Format - What Should It Be?

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