My 1972 F2 sounds very different than my 1977 F2

SchwinnParamount · Feb 17, 2021

These are essentially the same Nikon F2 cameras. The difference is in the serial numbers 71XXXX vs 77XXXX. The 1977 camera is in cosmetically better shape with only a small functional difference. The T/L ring around the shutter on the '77 camera is not balky. Otherwise, the cameras are functionally identical.

The difference is in the sound of the shutter firing. Vastly different. Absolutely night and day. The '77 has a higher pitched and more thin mechanical sound. The '71 has a very solid and reassuring bulky "thunk" sound. If you heard these shutters mere seconds apart (to avoid the loss of short-term audio memory in the hearer), you'd exclaim. "Oh shit, these are very different!" ... or words to that effect.

Why are these sounds so different in the same camera model?

BradS · Feb 17, 2021

One or both needs routine maintenance service
One has been fucked over by some DiY’er.
Gremlins

Ariston · Feb 17, 2021

Maybe the mirror damper foam...? Do the times sound the same?

Bronson Dugnutt · Feb 18, 2021

6 years worth of iterative improvements and/or cost reductions I'd reckon. Barring any deterioration of the camera materials, of course.

The 'tonal quality' of a shutter isn't a feature as much as its 'quietness' usually is, but it's a quality that anyone shooting film long enough will come to appreciate.

While in quarantine a made a few audio recordings while calibrating my home office setup. Here's a 28 second MP3 of 6 shutters, in sequence, actuating for a 1 second exposure. It should just play in-browser. If you can name any of the cameras... well... I'll buy you a coffee

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K3EmdomUVF1vxLFG5FO1L5ByXeTzRLzx/view

reddesert · Feb 18, 2021

First question is, do they both work right? If yes, then maybe don't worry about it, although check the mirror bumper foam as suggested.

Second, if they both make a clunk, but one has an added ping, there is a F2 Maintenance thread on Photrio where an intrepid member found and dampened a spring on the side of the mirror box that can make a ping noise if not damped.

SchwinnParamount · Feb 18, 2021

Bronson Dugnutt said:
6 years worth of iterative improvements and/or cost reductions I'd reckon. Barring any deterioration of the camera materials, of course.

The 'tonal quality' of a shutter isn't a feature as much as its 'quietness' usually is, but it's a quality that anyone shooting film long enough will come to appreciate.

While in quarantine a made a few audio recordings while calibrating my home office setup. Here's a 28 second MP3 of 6 shutters, in sequence, actuating for a 1 second exposure. It should just play in-browser. If you can name any of the cameras... well... I'll buy you a coffee

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K3EmdomUVF1vxLFG5FO1L5ByXeTzRLzx/view

Leica M3 and M6 of course!!

SchwinnParamount · Feb 18, 2021

reddesert said:
First question is, do they both work right? If yes, then maybe don't worry about it, although check the mirror bumper foam as suggested.

Second, if they both make a clunk, but one has an added ping, there is a F2 Maintenance thread on Photrio where an intrepid member found and dampened a spring on the side of the mirror box that can make a ping noise if not damped.

Interesting. I guess I'll do the listen test again tomorrow and listen for the ping.

MattKing · Feb 18, 2021

John.
After reading this and further to my comment in your other thread.
Now I'm convinced you are a nerd!
Enjoy your camera.

awty · Feb 18, 2021

I have 3, dampening the spring gets rid of the ping. They all sound similar once DIY serviced.
I have F which sounds different, slightly quieter.
My F3 is similar sounding to a F2
My F4's sound by far the best, especially with auto wind.
All work and make negatives that I can use for printing.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 18, 2021

Bronson Dugnutt said:
6 years worth of iterative improvements and/or cost reductions I'd reckon. Barring any deterioration of the camera materials, of course.

The 'tonal quality' of a shutter isn't a feature as much as its 'quietness' usually is, but it's a quality that anyone shooting film long enough will come to appreciate.

While in quarantine a made a few audio recordings while calibrating my home office setup. Here's a 28 second MP3 of 6 shutters, in sequence, actuating for a 1 second exposure. It should just play in-browser. If you can name any of the cameras... well... I'll buy you a coffee

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K3EmdomUVF1vxLFG5FO1L5ByXeTzRLzx/view

the second to last was an FM.

Kino · Feb 18, 2021

As Awty states, the ping is probably mirror damping foam, but probably NOT the foam you can get to through the lens mount.

It's under the front cover on the mirror box. Replace that and they will sound exactly the same.

Kino · Feb 18, 2021

reddesert said:
First question is, do they both work right? If yes, then maybe don't worry about it, although check the mirror bumper foam as suggested.

Second, if they both make a clunk, but one has an added ping, there is a F2 Maintenance thread on Photrio where an intrepid member found and dampened a spring on the side of the mirror box that can make a ping noise if not damped.

+1

SchwinnParamount · Feb 18, 2021

MattKing said:
John.
After reading this and further to my comment in your other thread.
Now I'm convinced you are a nerd!
Enjoy your camera.

LOL

Nitroplait · Feb 18, 2021

As have already been said: Deteriorated foam in the mirror box that was preventing a spring from resonating. Unfortunately inaccessible unless you do a stripdown. It is not a critical issue but something that is nice to have fixed next time you send it in for service.

Bronson Dugnutt · Feb 18, 2021

John M Austin said:
Leica M3 and M6 of course!!

No Leica's here... I'm an engineer, not a hedge fund manager.

RalphLambrecht said:
the second to last was an FM.

Ironically, I omitted the shutter actuation of an FM2N from the compilation. But here it is for reference:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rVJ2zmnNeDxyeWnU4odLYPJCqBBiWt6a/view

Hints for anyone interested, though I don't expect it makes much difference:

1. Leaf shutter (120 TLR)
2. FP 35mm (SLR)
3. Leaf shutter (120 Rangefinder)
4. Leaf shutter (4x5)
5. FP 35mm (SLR)
6. FP digital (MILC)

Upload some shutter sounds... if you dare!

RLangham · Feb 23, 2021

I really believe that the F2 is made for very long maintenance cycles, and that if nothing is actively wrong, it's usually not worth the risk to do preventative maintenance. So here's the thing: these are hand assembled machines with a lot of parts. There are probably small changes over the course of the first 6 years of production or so.

Now that's going to mean that there are a lot of factors that could affect something emergent like the sound of the camera. I think I have two f2s about that far apart in age. They also sound nothing alike. It doesn't worry me. What does is the fact that one of them caps or fails to open at 1/2000. I'll send it to Mike Trost eventually. Believe it or not, it's the new one that caps.

millardmt · Feb 24, 2021

RLangham said:
I really believe that the F2 is made for very long maintenance cycles, and that if nothing is actively wrong, it's usually not worth the risk to do preventative maintenance. So here's the thing: these are hand assembled machines with a lot of parts. There are probably small changes over the course of the first 6 years of production or so.

Now that's going to mean that there are a lot of factors that could affect something emergent like the sound of the camera. I think I have two f2s about that far apart in age. They also sound nothing alike. It doesn't worry me. What does is the fact that one of them caps or fails to open at 1/2000. I'll send it to Mike Trost eventually. Believe it or not, it's the new one that caps.

I have ten F2's including two "Titans" and an F2 Data, with sn#'s ranging from 71to 80 (& 92). All have been 'Soverized' and all sound exactly the same.
Marc

Besk · Feb 24, 2021

Millard Marc Thomas said:
I have ten F2's including two "Titans" and an F2 Data, with sn#'s ranging from 71to 80 (& 92). All have been 'Soverized' and all sound exactly the same.
Marc

Good Gosh!!

RLangham · Feb 24, 2021

Millard Marc Thomas said:
I have ten F2's including two "Titans" and an F2 Data, with sn#'s ranging from 71to 80 (& 92). All have been 'Soverized' and all sound exactly the same.
Marc

I imagine having the same tech work on them would have that effect yeah.
I just don't know that it really matters whether they sound the same or sound different as long as they work. I certainly wouldn't send something to Sover just because I didn't like the sound unless the sound was really bad, with grinding or crunching or something.
Now, for cameras that use organic oil and have brass components and so on, I definitely believe in having them CLA'd preventatively. But the Nikon F2 uses synthetic oil, very strong components and is very well sealed. I think at a certain point opening it up needlessly for CLA will actually cut into the usable lifetime, unless you have a very good tech like Mr Wong. And even employing him needlessly is a good way to waste money that you could buy film with. So in conclusion I'd really not tell OP to worry about having his camera serviced preventatively over the sound.

millardmt · Feb 24, 2021

RLangham said:
I imagine having the same tech work on them would have that effect yeah.
I just don't know that it really matters whether they sound the same or sound different as long as they work. I certainly wouldn't send something to Sover just because I didn't like the sound unless the sound was really bad, with grinding or crunching or something.
Now, for cameras that use organic oil and have brass components and so on, I definitely believe in having them CLA'd preventatively. But the Nikon F2 uses synthetic oil, very strong components and is very well sealed. I think at a certain point opening it up needlessly for CLA will actually cut into the usable lifetime, unless you have a very good tech like Mr Wong. And even employing him needlessly is a good way to waste money that you could buy film with. So in conclusion I'd really not tell OP to worry about having his camera serviced preventatively over the sound.

Yes and no, I would say. It's true that I am obsessive-compulsive about only using cameras of known -- and excellent -- condition. On the other hand, Sover has NEVER told me that a camera he's just opened is up to specification, and usually says it's in need of significant repair. Of the 13 F2's I've sent him so far, Sover has deemed that six of them merited his "extended" -- that is, most thorough -- service. Most often, the problems have been down to fungus and/or the ministrations of past, incompetent service people. (Sover has fobidden me from buying any more cameras from especially hot & humid climes, such as the southern U.S. or Asia, unless there is proof that the gear has been environmentally protected.)

But the most important thing I've learned from Sover over the years is that ALL eye-level F2 finders are ticking time bombs. And I don't mean just the metered ones. The main issue is that the original foam packing that surrounds the finder prism rots over time and inevitably starts to chemically dissolve the prism's silvering. The only way to arrest this process is to remove the packing and carefully clear the prism of any residue. (The meterless finders -- i.e., the DE-1 -- I have owned seemed particularly prone to this kind of deterioration, but that's probably just been my bad luck.). Only then does it make sense to proceed with electrical repair and adjustment.

Sover has been trained as an electrical engineer, oddly enough, but loves the mechanically elegant F2 nonetheless. The worst part of dealing with him is the horrible, tedious ritual of mailing your gear off in the first place. It's essential that Sover's instructions be followed to the letter, and postage is not cheap -- at least from the States. I am not a rich man! I have not asked Sover if Brexit has changed things.

Marc

(My Nikon cameras are not mint, and I use half of those I own on a regular basis. They are the most robust cameras I have ever encountered. M)

tomkatf · Feb 24, 2021

Ariston said:
Maybe the mirror damper foam...? Do the times sound the same?

First thing I would check... They tend to go ping without the dampening foam...

RLangham · Feb 26, 2021

Millard Marc Thomas said:
Yes and no, I would say. It's true that I am obsessive-compulsive about only using cameras of known -- and excellent -- condition. On the other hand, Sover has NEVER told me that a camera he's just opened is up to specification, and usually says it's in need of significant repair. Of the 13 F2's I've sent him so far, Sover has deemed that six of them merited his "extended" -- that is, most thorough -- service. Most often, the problems have been down to fungus and/or the ministrations of past, incompetent service people. (Sover has fobidden me from buying any more cameras from especially hot & humid climes, such as the southern U.S. or Asia, unless there is proof that the gear has been environmentally protected.)

But the most important thing I've learned from Sover over the years is that ALL eye-level F2 finders are ticking time bombs. And I don't mean just the metered ones. The main issue is that the original foam packing that surrounds the finder prism rots over time and inevitably starts to chemically dissolve the prism's silvering. The only way to arrest this process is to remove the packing and carefully clear the prism of any residue. (The meterless finders -- i.e., the DE-1 -- I have owned seemed particularly prone to this kind of deterioration, but that's probably just been my bad luck.). Only then does it make sense to proceed with electrical repair and adjustment.

Sover has been trained as an electrical engineer, oddly enough, but loves the mechanically elegant F2 nonetheless. The worst part of dealing with him is the horrible, tedious ritual of mailing your gear off in the first place. It's essential that Sover's instructions be followed to the letter, and postage is not cheap -- at least from the States. I am not a rich man! I have not asked Sover if Brexit has changed things.

Marc

(My Nikon cameras are not mint, and I use half of those I own on a regular basis. They are the most robust cameras I have ever encountered. M)

That's very interesting. I had never heard about the foam in the eye level prisms. Eventually I'll have to look into having my dp3 cleaned...

Now I'm not going to pretend to interpret what Sover Wong told you regarding the mechanical condition of all your cameras. I will say that not every tech is Mr Wong, and if he is as good as his legendary reputation, there are probably cameras that he could noticeably improve, that younger, less experienced or less talented technicians would do damage to just by opening. I am still firm in my belief that the F2 is not really supposed to be opened that often, but when you're as good as Mr Wong you can avoid doing damage.

And look, I think his standards are probably very exacting, which goes with his level of skill, talent and experience. As for me, I'm doing photography as a hobby on a budget, and I take what I can get as far as working cameras go.

Nitroplait · Feb 26, 2021

Millard Marc Thomas said:
Yes and no, I would say. It's true that I am obsessive-compulsive about only using cameras of known -- and excellent -- condition. On the other hand, Sover has NEVER told me that a camera he's just opened is up to specification, and usually says it's in need of significant repair. Of the 13 F2's I've sent him so far, Sover has deemed that six of them merited his "extended" -- that is, most thorough -- service. Most often, the problems have been down to fungus and/or the ministrations of past, incompetent service people. (Sover has fobidden me from buying any more cameras from especially hot & humid climes, such as the southern U.S. or Asia, unless there is proof that the gear has been environmentally protected.)

But the most important thing I've learned from Sover over the years is that ALL eye-level F2 finders are ticking time bombs. And I don't mean just the metered ones. The main issue is that the original foam packing that surrounds the finder prism rots over time and inevitably starts to chemically dissolve the prism's silvering. The only way to arrest this process is to remove the packing and carefully clear the prism of any residue. (The meterless finders -- i.e., the DE-1 -- I have owned seemed particularly prone to this kind of deterioration, but that's probably just been my bad luck.). Only then does it make sense to proceed with electrical repair and adjustment.

Sover has been trained as an electrical engineer, oddly enough, but loves the mechanically elegant F2 nonetheless. The worst part of dealing with him is the horrible, tedious ritual of mailing your gear off in the first place. It's essential that Sover's instructions be followed to the letter, and postage is not cheap -- at least from the States. I am not a rich man! I have not asked Sover if Brexit has changed things.

Marc

(My Nikon cameras are not mint, and I use half of those I own on a regular basis. They are the most robust cameras I have ever encountered. M)

...when OCD’s communicates.
If it works, it works. No F2 is a ticking time bomb unless it has green stuff growing on it.

George Mann · Feb 26, 2021

Nitroplait said:
...when OCD’s communicates.
If it works, it works. No F2 is a ticking time bomb unless it has green stuff growing on it.

You'all need to go to Sovers site and look at the links regarding the test results of an F2 after 7 and 13 years.

Once you see how much the shutter can be out of spec, you will see how important it is to have these regularly service.

Nitroplait · Feb 26, 2021

George Mann said:
You'all need to go to Sovers site and look at the links regarding the test results of an F2 after 7 and 13 years.

Once you see how much the shutter can be out of spec, you will see how important it is to have these regularly service.

And yet many are shooting their F2's and are happy, and their cameras does not implode.
Service when you think something is wrong, otherwise it will become a very expensive hobby.

My 1972 F2 sounds very different than my 1977 F2

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency