mulitcoating on a TLR lens?

[kingbuzzie]

1st off, let me state I learned my lesson. A a sunny day and fast color film in an old yashica-mat do not go well together. At least it didn't for me (even with a hood).

I've been eyeing a mamiya tlr for some time now, but not enough to pay for one a guess. Are any of the lenses multi coated? There seems to be some disagreement.

 

[macfred]

Rolleiflex 2.8 GX with HFT coating (which was the Rollei version of multicoating). Not sure about those Mamiya Cxx lenses.

 

[kingbuzzie]

Rolleiflex 2.8 GX with HFT coating (which was the Rollei version of multicoating). Not sure about those Mamiya Cxx lenses.

tee hee. If I could afford that I would own a 1974 rally 200 instead.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Mamiya Cxx lenses, which I believe are multicoated, are optically very good and I advise using with a lens hood as with any lens.

 

[Paul Howell]

I shoot with a Yashica D and 124, fast film color and B&W with a hood and a UV or skylight filter, no issues with flare unless shooting into the sun.

 

[kingbuzzie]

I shoot with a Yashica D and 124, fast film color and B&W with a hood and a UV or skylight filter, no issues with flare unless shooting into the sun.

Are modern multicoated bay-1 filters available?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

For filters you can use a bay 1-to-thread-of-your-choice adapter. But I agree with Paul, so long as you are decently careful about not shooting straight into the sun you should not have any issues. I don't believe in hoods, I think they make my camera unacceptably annoying to slip in and out of a camera bag. Is there a possibility the colors are weird because of a scanning issue, not an issue with the negative? Would you be willing to show examples?

As for multicoating and TLRs, I don't know if it was coated but I personally found my Autocord dealt with flare better than my Rolleicord and Yashica D (which had a real serious problem with flare, and since I don't like hoods, I sold it).

 

[kingbuzzie]

For filters you can use a bay 1-to-thread-of-your-choice adapter. But I agree with Paul, so long as you are decently careful about not shooting straight into the sun you should not have any issues. I don't believe in hoods, I think they make my camera unacceptably annoying to slip in and out of a camera bag. Is there a possibility the colors are weird because of a scanning issue, not an issue with the negative? Would you be willing to show examples?

As for multicoating and TLRs, I don't know if it was coated but I personally found my Autocord dealt with flare better than my Rolleicord and Yashica D (which had a real serious problem with flare, and since I don't like hoods, I sold it).

Well I also had a strange issue with my lens being hazy dirty only after two years from Mark Hama's CLA. There never was a good answer why. I couldn't clean it myself because the B setting broke as well. All the very light to white in the negatives we glowing / bleeding, even the one time I shot at the golden hour. It has since had another repair from Mr. Hama. Regardless, I'm not a good photographer and the flare prone lens doesn't help me much. I don't think I kept any of the scans, but I'll look. I'm interested in the mamiya tlr regardless, so it would be nice if there were multicoated lenses. I've done some more reading though, and I'm not sure if that is the case.

 

[Dan Daniel]

1st off, let me state I learned my lesson. A a sunny day and fast color film in an old yashica-mat do not go well together. At least it didn't for me (even with a hood).

I've been eyeing a mamiya tlr for some time now, but not enough to pay for one a guess. Are any of the lenses multi coated? There seems to be some disagreement.

Not an answer to the multi-coating question, but Yashicas especially are very prone to internal flare due to the lack of baffling and the semi-gloss paint they used. So adding internal flocking to kill the reflections can help.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/yashicamat/discuss/72157622473525907/?search=flocking
Of course sun in the frame and such is another type and level of flare. And a lens hood is basically required with a TLR; anyone who isn't using one gets what they deserve or what they want, but you will get flare pure and simple.

 

[kingbuzzie]

Not an answer to the multi-coating question, but Yashicas especially are very prone to internal flare due to the lack of baffling and the semi-gloss paint they used. So adding internal flocking to kill the reflections can help.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/yashicamat/discuss/72157622473525907/?search=flocking
Of course sun in the frame and such is another type and level of flare.

Oh I've already flocked the f*ck out it. I wish there was a 3d printed baffle I could wedge in.

 

[macfred]

Are modern multicoated bay-1 filters available?

Yes, Heliopan does multicoated bay I (II and III) filters :
FI2023-BAJI Heliopan UV Filter SH-PMC (2023)
Ø Baj I, SH-PMC vergütet 48,95 EUR inkl.gesetzl. MwSt versandkostenfrei

https://www.fotofilterversand.de/fofilter/aw-heliopan-uvfilter.htm

https://www.fotofilterversand.de/CGI-BIN/webkat98.exe?000888.HTM&WA=EUR-FOFILTER

 

[AgX]

The advantage of multi-coating vs. single-layer-coating or even double -layer-coating is overestimated, for sure with simple lens designs.

Concerning reflections at filters, contemplate on the critical rays.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well I also had a strange issue with my lens being hazy dirty only after two years from Mark Hama's CLA. There never was a good answer why. I couldn't clean it myself because the B setting broke as well. All the very light to white in the negatives we glowing / bleeding, even the one time I shot at the golden hour. It has since had another repair from Mr. Hama. Regardless, I'm not a good photographer and the flare prone lens doesn't help me much. I don't think I kept any of the scans, but I'll look. I'm interested in the mamiya tlr regardless, so it would be nice if there were multicoated lenses. I've done some more reading though, and I'm not sure if that is the case.

There's something seriously wrong with this lens far beyond lack of multicoating, and no amount of baffling will ever fix it. You should consider contacting Mr. Hama and asking him what he thinks is the issue. It almost looks like one of those lenses with vaseline smeared on a filter that people do for "artistic effect". I have an uncoated Xenar that doesn't look that bad. I would recommend you stop putting money in this camera and get a new camera, and don't worry too much about the coatings because nothing will be this bad.

By the way, if you want a TLR that is well baffled internally your options are Ricohmatic 225 or a Rolleiflex. I think that's it!

 

[StepheKoontz]

On simple lenses, like a tessar, I doubt you will see any difference between single and multi coatings. What's a lot more likely is haze on interior lens surfaces. That is a problem that some people mistake for lens/coating flare. It doesn't take much to ruin the usefulness of a lens. I've had lenses with hazy coatings that worked 1000% better polishing the hazy coating off to where they were uncoated lenses.

 

[kingbuzzie]

There's something seriously wrong with this lens far beyond lack of multicoating, and no amount of baffling will ever fix it. You should consider contacting Mr. Hama and asking him what he thinks is the issue. It almost looks like one of those lenses with vaseline smeared on a filter that people do for "artistic effect". I have an uncoated Xenar that doesn't look that bad. I would recommend you stop putting money in this camera and get a new camera, and don't worry too much about the coatings because nothing will be this bad.

By the way, if you want a TLR that is well baffled internally your options are Ricohmatic 225 or a Rolleiflex. I think that's it!

Yes, like I said it had a dirty haze after only two years of very light use. Since the fixed the B setting, I can easily inspect it now and it seems clean. I "politely pressed" Mr. Hama on why the lens got so dirty so fast and he couldn't come up with an answer, and neither can I really. Since this was already overhauled, I would replace the lens as a last resort rather than give it up and risk not knowing what I am getting.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, like I said it had a dirty haze after only two years of very light use. Since Mr. Hama fixed the B setting, I can easily inspect it now and it seems clean. I "politely pressed" Mr. Hama on why the lens got so dirty so fast and he couldn't come up with an answer, and neither can I really. At least with the B setting fixed I can clean inside myself!

Were these pictures taken before or after that cleaning?

 

[kingbuzzie]

Were these pictures taken before or after that cleaning?

Oh god definitely before. Although I do struggle with lens flair on occasion. I was really just more interested in picking up a TLR with more modern lens coatings, not to totally deride my yashica mat 12.

 

[wiltw]

The advantage of multi-coating vs. single-layer-coating or even double -layer-coating is overestimated, for sure with simple lens designs.

Concerning reflections at filters, contemplate on the critical rays.

Note the difference in resistance to flare in the lesser filter vs. a nice multicoated filter. https://www.kenandchristine.com/Other/Equipment-Tests/Filter-Tests/
admittendly this was under some very stringent circumstances, and I would remove all filters under the same circumstances myself.

and note the relative performance of the more expensive vs. less expensive filters, generally speaking
https://www.lenstip.com/113.4-article-UV_filters_test_Description_of_the_results_and_summary.html

 

[DWThomas]

There's a reason the little instruction sheets packed with the film decades back recommended shooting with the sun behind you, over one shoulder or the other. I have a 124G and have no complaints about it, but I've gotten the impression that it, and maybe one or two others of the last Yashica models had some baffles or flocking/matte paint/whatever that earlier models did not. That is, some of the flare was attributed to internal reflections from metal walls in the film chamber.

I don't doubt one can devise tests that show somewhat improved results with super-duper coated filters, but my own experiences have not led me to worry about it.

 

[Dali]

1st off, let me state I learned my lesson. A a sunny day and fast color film in an old yashica-mat do not go well together. At least it didn't for me (even with a hood).

I've been eyeing a mamiya tlr for some time now, but not enough to pay for one a guess. Are any of the lenses multi coated? There seems to be some disagreement.

Mamaya C lenses were produced for decades and it is safe to assume that the coating changed along the years. I would guess that they were single coated at first and last batches were multi-coated as it was a kind of standard practice in the '80. But they could also have been single coated until the end of production as the optical design of these lenses is not that complex.

Mine (55, 80 & 135mm) look single coated and I never complained about a lack of contrast or flare.

 

[Nodda Duma]

Yes, like I said it had a dirty haze after only two years of very light use. Since the fixed the B setting, I can easily inspect it now and it seems clean. I "politely pressed" Mr. Hama on why the lens got so dirty so fast and he couldn't come up with an answer, and neither can I really. Since this was already overhauled, I would replace the lens as a last resort rather than give it up and risk not knowing what I am getting.

My professional (lens design) experience tells me the haze is from outgassing of whatever solvent / lubrication he used when he reassembled your camera. Unless you use specialized low-outgassing lubricants in optical assemblies, the volatiles will deposit on the optical surfaces and create a haze -- usually within the timeframe you mention.

- Jason

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My professional (lens design) experience tells me the haze is from outgassing of whatever solvent / lubrication he used when he reassembled your camera. Unless you use specialized low-outgassing lubricants in optical assemblies, the volatiles will deposit on the optical surfaces and create a haze -- usually within the timeframe you mention.

- Jason

It is odd though, Mr. Hama is a very well regarded repairman -- the David Odess of Yashica. I would be surprised to see him using a grease not well suited to the task. Especially since he has to warranty it!

 

[AgX]

Note the difference in resistance to flare in the lesser filter vs. a nice multicoated filter. https://www.kenandchristine.com/Other/Equipment-Tests/Filter-Tests/
admittendly this was under some very stringent circumstances, and I would remove all filters under the same circumstances myself.

The one that stands out is a filter not coated at all. To my understanding the discussion here is about multicoating versus single- or lesser-coated
filter.
The result with this one is stronger than to be expected. I shall try to replicate this.


In the past there were "ghostless" filters. For unknown reasons they are not longer offered. Strange enough they are not even talked about here.

 

[Nodda Duma]

It is odd though, Mr. Hama is a very well regarded repairman -- the David Odess of Yashica. I would be surprised to see him using a grease not well suited to the task. Especially since he has to warranty it!

I don’t know the reputation, just the symptoms and causes of issues in imaging devices. If you were curious, you could ask him what he uses for lubricant in a CLA, then cross-reference against NASA’s outgassing database at https://outgassing.nasa.gov/ . Materials with Total Mass Loss (TML) < 1% and Collected Volatile Condensable Materials (CVCM) < 0.1% are considered suitable for use in optical devices as they will not form haze on the optical surfaces..

Could have been something in the box/case/bag the camera was stored in, if the haze was only on external surfaces. Haze on interior surfaces are due to something inside the assembly.

Regards,
Jason

 

[benjiboy]

Yes, Heliopan does multicoated bay I (II and III) filters :
FI2023-BAJI Heliopan UV Filter SH-PMC (2023)
Ø Baj I, SH-PMC vergütet 48,95 EUR inkl.gesetzl. MwSt versandkostenfrei

https://www.fotofilterversand.de/fofilter/aw-heliopan-uvfilter.htm

Using multi-coated filters on none multi-coated lenses will not solve your problem.