MQ-Tea

mrred · Sep 10, 2015

Has anyone tried this combination before? I threw some together this afternoon to try some Hydroquinone at staining. While I wait for it to cool, I thought I'd ask.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 10, 2015

When used as the only developing agent hydroquinone can be made to produce a stain image. However the stain is less than that produced by pyrogallol or catechol.

mrred · Sep 10, 2015

I have some "real" catechol. I'm just curious and read some of your posts on the subject. I was down to my last 10 or so grams, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. maybe it will just be another developer on the shelf....

I did read where (from Gainer I believe) said it should work super additive as long as there were no sodium sulfite.

I still have a few grams left if it only works alone.

Rudeofus · Sep 11, 2015

The big difference between HQ and Acorbic Acid is that the former needs Sulfite to work properly, unless you want a lith developer. AFAIK you also need Sulfite for Catechol based developers, so nothing is gained from going that route. When HC-110 is made, Sulfur Dioxide is bubbled into TEA to form an addition product, which then supplies Sulfite ions to the working solution. Such a production process is out of reach for us amateurs, therefore I am not sure whether MQ-TEA can be turned into a useful general purpose developer made from a single concentrate.

I think you could use Potassium Sulfite to make a very concentrated second stock solution B, then mix developer working solution from x parts A, y parts B and z parts water.

ritternathan · Sep 11, 2015

I have used the following with success:

50g HQ
4g Metol
4g Ascorbic Acid

1000ml Glycol

as a 'B' 200g/L Sodium Carbonate (mono)

mix 1:1:100 for times start w/pyrocat times, since it is based on that formula. I get a nice red-brown stain

If you mix the A part in TEA, will the ph be high enough?

Gerald C Koch · Sep 11, 2015

The idea of a single solution waterless glycol or TEA based concentrate is appealing. However these solvents severely limit what chemicals can be used in their formulations. Kodak had to resort to adducts to introduce sulfite and bromide into HC-110. In addition one is restricted to using amines for pH control.

Alan Johnson · Sep 11, 2015

See Sandy King's Pyro-Metol TEA:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
IDK if this will work with HQ, it has a different number of -OH groups.

Rudeofus · Sep 11, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
In addition one is restricted to using amines for pH control.

This is not a big restriction, as the DEA/TEA/Ascorbate mixture ratio can be freely chosen to get the pH and buffering you want. With Propylene Glycol as solvent you can achieve the same with Metaborate, Borax and Boric/Ascorbic Acid.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 11, 2015

Rudeofus said:
This is not a big restriction, as the DEA/TEA/Ascorbate mixture ratio can be freely chosen to get the pH and buffering you want. With Propylene Glycol as solvent you can achieve the same with Metaborate, Borax and Boric/Ascorbic Acid.

For the sake of brevity I lumped the substituted amines like DEA and TEA together with the unsubstituted ones.

mrred · Sep 11, 2015

I don't think we are on the same track. My object was not to make a pyro developer....I have one.... It was to make a staining developer out of metol,hydroquinone and tea.....only. If it failed I will try hydroquineone and tea.

As far as PH is concerned, the developer creates the familiar cocoa-cola colour when poured out. It does develop a leader black. I just have not tested it on any images yet. I am confident it will work, because of the developer colour change. The only real questions is how much of a stain will be produced and how sharp (usable) the image will be without any sulfite.

I posted this question because I figured someone must have tried before. I guess not.

mrred · Sep 11, 2015

The formula I am using......

75 ml tea (tech) warmed enough to mix ingredients
5g Metol
10g Hydroquineone
Topped up to 100ml when mixed and cooled.

Not complicated and develops with the ph of the tea.

mrred · Sep 11, 2015

First usable roll out. It seams that it doesn't like a weaker dilution that 1:50. These (ORWO N74+) were in a rotary drum for 10 mins and appear to be about 3 stops off. I'm going to put it through an excessive wash to get any pronounced amount of stain. Next time I may use some kodalk to see if some added PH will make a positive difference.

el wacho · Sep 14, 2015

i have used hydroquinone and metol as a staining developer and it stains very well - by very well i mean that the stain contributes substantially to the printing process. the formula is similar to pyrocat hd but it does require some adjustment and testing to obtain a favourable outcome.

sol a,
metol 1.8g
hydroquinone 4g
sodium metaborate 1g
water 100ml

use 5ml in 500ml.

the alkaline bath is sod. carbonate 2.5g / 500ml (any more and fog/stain increases unecessarily)

the above is the result of about 2 months of testing and printing/living with the prints.

at the end i felt that the image quality was a bit 'synthetic' and 'plasticky' - the stain is very prominent - more prominent than catechol.

anyone that claims that hydroquinone produces less of a stain that catechol hasn't really done the testing imo.

the above formula Works without the metol (i've tested it). the metol contributes to the final image quality. you would have to experiment with it yourself to arrive at your own, aesthetically informed conclusions.

Rudeofus · Sep 14, 2015

el wacho said:
anyone that claims that hydroquinone produces less of a stain that catechol hasn't really done the testing imo.

Is there any data about long term stability of this HQ stain?

RalphLambrecht · Sep 14, 2015

ritternathan said:
I have used the following with success:

50g HQ
4g Metol
4g Ascorbic Acid

1000ml Glycol

as a 'B' 200g/L Sodium Carbonate (mono)

mix 1:1:100 for times start w/pyrocat times, since it is based on that formula. I get a nice red-brown stain

If you mix the A part in TEA, will the ph be high enough?

sounds expensivewith that amount of HQ:confused:

mrred · Sep 14, 2015

el wacho said:
i have used hydroquinone and metol as a staining developer and it stains very well - by very well i mean that the stain contributes substantially to the printing process. the formula is similar to pyrocat hd but it does require some adjustment and testing to obtain a favourable outcome.

sol a,
metol 1.8g
hydroquinone 4g
sodium metaborate 1g
water 100ml

use 5ml in 500ml.

the alkaline bath is sod. carbonate 2.5g / 500ml (any more and fog/stain increases unecessarily)

the above is the result of about 2 months of testing and printing/living with the prints.

at the end i felt that the image quality was a bit 'synthetic' and 'plasticky' - the stain is very prominent - more prominent than catechol.

anyone that claims that hydroquinone produces less of a stain that catechol hasn't really done the testing imo.

the above formula Works without the metol (i've tested it). the metol contributes to the final image quality. you would have to experiment with it yourself to arrive at your own, aesthetically informed conclusions.

My tests have produced little useable stain. Comparing yours, I guess that is a PH issue and I am going to try yours next....

el wacho · Sep 14, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
sounds expensivewith that amount of HQ:confused:

the final dilution uses less hq than d76 1:1

mrred · Sep 14, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Is there any data about long term stability of this HQ stain?

I have my doubts. Not enough people actually trying to use it that way. I can't even see it as being that commercially usable.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 14, 2015

anyone that claims that hydroquinone produces less of a stain that catechol

Interesting. IIRC either Mason or Glafkides mention that the stain is less. In addition I have never encountered a staining developer based on hydroquinone and I have dozens of formulas.

el wacho · Sep 14, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
Interesting. IIRC either Mason or Glafkides mention that the stain is less. In addition I have never encountered a staining developer based on hydroquinone and I have dozens of formulas.

I'm sure you and your friends are right.

el wacho · Sep 14, 2015

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

lt seems to be an older topic than thought...

el wacho · Sep 14, 2015

OK, so on to L P Clerc'sPhotography Theory and Practice, 1971 edition revised by R. E. Jacobson, Vol 4,Monochrome Processing:

"
The quinonoid oxidation products of developers that are formed in the absence of sulphite, or in the presence of very low concentration of sulphite, are deposited in the gelatine at the site of development, and in a quantity proportional to the amount of silver halide reduced. Usually they polymerize, giving rise to coloured, tanning substances of the nature of humic acids, whose exact constitution is unknown.

After removing the silver image ... a yellow or brownsecondary imageremains, which, though it may not appear very intense to the eye, can give acceptable prints on high contrast paper because of its absorbtion of actinic light. The following table (Lumière and Seyewetz, 1928) shows the colour of the secondary image obtained in various developers, its relative intensity and the concentration of sulphite necessary to prevent its formation.

Developer -- colour -- relative intensity -- sulphite g/litre

Pyro -- yellow-orange -- 10 -- 11
Catechol -- black -- 10 -- 6
Hydroquinone -- yellow-brown -- 10 -- 2
Chlorhydroquinone -- yellow-brown -- 10 -- 2
Amidol -- reddish-brown -- 8 -- 2
p-Aminophenol -- brownish-black -- 3 -- 2
Metol -- brownish-black -- 2 -- 1
PPD -- Grey -- 1 -- 0
Glycin -- None."

el wacho · Sep 14, 2015

_Stock_ _Developer_:
10gms (1TBS + 1/4tsp) of Hydroquinone
.25gms (1/8tsp) of Phenidone
Heated to dissolve in 100mls Propylene Glycol (use a water bath)

Dilute 1:50 to make working solution with
4gms of Borax (1tsp) &
5gms of Sodium Carbonate (1tsp)
per litre of working solution.

5 1/2 minutes with Apx 100 gave soft-ish looking but contrasty printing
negatives. 1min initial agitation, 5 inversions every minute thereafter.

This is an earlier Gainer staining formula which inspired me to look into the matter.

Alan Johnson · Sep 14, 2015

It might be possible to get MQ-TEA to work at the pH of TEA by adding some Ascorbic acid, similar to what Jay Defehr sucessfully did with 510 Pyro.

mrred · Sep 14, 2015

My formula does develop at the ph of tea. The problem is there is no stain to speak of. Adding aa will make it a better developer and not give any more stain.

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MQ-Tea

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