More Vivian Maier

[warden]

When I ran my non-photographic business, I don't recall one instance where I used a lawyer to draw up an agreement, proposal, or contract?

Some businesses can operate that way with no problem, especially when the disagreements the business owner is likely to face are relatively small and affordable. It's good that you never have had a problem! I haven't either, but do need to use the assistance of professionals from time to time.

 

[Arthurwg]

I know a professional fine art printer who makes pictures for the estates of famous photographers or museum shows who occasionally sells "proofs" of those pictures. Is that legal?

 

[warden]

I know a professional fine art printer who makes pictures for the estates of famous photographers or museum shows who occasionally sells "proofs" of those pictures. Is that legal?

That printer is taking a risk if they're duplicating the work of a photographer and selling it without knowledge or consent of their customer.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

you don't have to study law but you have to be informed. its no fun getting ripped off.


me too but I wish I did for 1 job. a well known real estate developer from out of state asked me to be on their staff and do work for them. they were renovating a large mill complex, and needed someone with my experience. I had been doing photo stuff for nearly 20 years professionally and thought I would be OK ( and they came highly recommended by people I had worked with years before too) ... but .. I know better now. should have had a mechanic's lien put on them. turns out I found out years later I wasn't alone, they ripped off 100s of local people ( some put mechanics liens on them and eventually got paid, they had a lawyer help them out .. ) ... hindsight is 20 20.


I’m glad they know what photography is because philosophers have been trying to figure out what it is for at least five or six decades…and photography doesn’t know what it is either…
I guess performing arts because it is recording something and there are releases involved ?

When I was first getting started in business, I had a problem with a real estate developer in Manhattan who clipped me for $3500. My instinct when I met him the first time was negative. He seemed flaky. But I was too interested in getting his building to service its fire alarm system, a 60 story high rise office building on Park Avenue South. So I ignored my intuition and proceeded to do work for him. Big mistake, but lesson learned. I didn't file a mechanics lien. I was new at the time and didn't want to get a reputation with other real estate companies and people I might be doing business with as I developed my company. Despite being so big, the Manhattan office building real estate industry is actually pretty small. There are only so many players. But I learned a lesson and worked only with those developers, owners, and management companies I learned I could trust. I had one building, the American Bible Society that owned a building on Broadway, that I sent a substantial proposal for additional work he needed to be done. Two weeks later, he called me asking why I had;t sent him the first invoice for 1/3 of the total amount I asked for in my proposal, even before starting any work. I hand't even sent an invoice. He was calling me! With customers like that, I didn't need a lawyer.

I got to the point where I had been servicing the fire alarm systems in many Manhattahigh-rise office buildings for twenty years and getting paid the monthly service charge, with direct bank transfers. I didn't even have to invoice them so established were my relations. Even when buildings and management companies changed hands, I was able to transfer the auto payments. The only notification I sent them was an annual increase based on CPI. They would adjust their computers with the new amount and the direct payments would continue at the higher rate. Boy was that sweet. In effect, there really was no proposal or signed contract. So no need for a lawyer to read the fine print. There wasn't any. All done on trust for twenty years.

There were contractors that didn't pay me. But I never filed a lien going after them through the NYC COmportrollers OFfice if it was government work. Or if I was a sub to them in one of my commercial service buildings where new tenant work was being done, I would pressure them for payment using the building owner. I would never file a lien in that case. After all, I was the building owner's inside contractor and had their protection.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Just so no one thinks it was a one-way street, my service work was 24/7 including holidays. I remember an instance where I personally had to service a building on Mother's Day on Sunday because I couldn't get any of my techs down to the building. My wife waited in the car double-parked outside while I fixed the system that had gone down. It was that kind of support that the building owners and management companies really appreciated. It created a lot of trust. Bending over backwards to do the right thing is great for your reputation and long term relations whether in real estate, contracting, service, or photography.

 

[removed account4]

Alan
Sounds like you had a good situation except for the guy who left you holding the bag.
John

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan
Sounds like you had a good situation except for the guy who left you holding the bag.
John

He was a real creep. When I met him the first time on a Friday, he told me how he was holding back payment to a contractor until Monday so he could make three extra days of interest. A dead giveaway who I was dealing with. But I was greedily blinded hoping to pick up his building. So I went ahead with the initial work anyway. Then he didn't pay me because he said he subsequently decided to replace the fire alarm system which has nothing to do with the work I did. "Why should I pay you?" he asked me.

Actually, now that I remember, I got the last laugh. The new fire alarm system was halfway done when the system manufacturer went bankrupt. So he had to go to a third company to replace the half-installed one, all at much larger expense. He would have been better off paying me the $3500 and then buying a service contract from me with the original system.

 

[MattKing]

It is funny how many people think that you only go to lawyers to deal with existing problems.
I had many satisfied clients who came to me for advice about how to avoid problems, and how to be in a good position to deal with them if they should arise.
The most valuable thing I had to sell was advice.
And a lot of people who dealt with my clients also appreciated my advice, because they too benefitted from having issues raised and understood and agreed upon before they became disputes and problems.
And while there are lots of perfectly enforceable contracts out there that haven't been reduced to writing, that really increases the chance of misunderstanding, particularly if you are dealing with organizations where the individuals involved can change.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Something's wrong when you have to study law to shoot a picture.

Hmm, I could take photographs, make prints, sell the prints and then sue myself. I am gonna be rich!

 

[MattKing]

It has been bugging me - thread title typo corrected.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It is funny how many people think that you only go to lawyers to deal with existing problems.
I had many satisfied clients who came to me for advice about how to avoid problems, and how to be in a good position to deal with them if they should arise.
The most valuable thing I had to sell was advice.
And a lot of people who dealt with my clients also appreciated my advice, because they too benefitted from having issues raised and understood and agreed upon before they became disputes and problems.
And while there are lots of perfectly enforceable contracts out there that haven't been reduced to writing, that really increases the chance of misunderstanding, particularly if you are dealing with organizations where the individuals involved can change.

A little trick I Learned was to send an email or letter confirmation. Such as this. "Thanks for your telephone order today. We are proceeding with Furnishing 20 photographs at $50 each. We should have them for you in about two weeks. Thanks again. Alan"

While the customer didn't sign, it avoids disagreements later with what was agreed to on the phone or in personal conversation.

Of course if it's a big job, you'd want to send a proposal that has to be executed by both parties. .

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Works with wives too.

 

[warden]

It is funny how many people think that you only go to lawyers to deal with existing problems.
I had many satisfied clients who came to me for advice about how to avoid problems, and how to be in a good position to deal with them if they should arise.
The most valuable thing I had to sell was advice.
And a lot of people who dealt with my clients also appreciated my advice, because they too benefitted from having issues raised and understood and agreed upon before they became disputes and problems.
And while there are lots of perfectly enforceable contracts out there that haven't been reduced to writing, that really increases the chance of misunderstanding, particularly if you are dealing with organizations where the individuals involved can change.

Lawyers get a bad rap, but I've never regretted a dollar spent on legal services, which often as not involve business strategy and consulting services rather than producing paperwork and contracts.

 

[AgX]

Something's wrong when you have to study law to shoot a picture.

you don't have to study law but you have to be informed.

But matters, at least over here, became so complex, that someone who is busy with legal matters as me, must look up things to give reasonable answers, let alone feel secure the moment holding the camera.

 

[Don_ih]

It is funny how many people think that you only go to lawyers to deal with existing problems.

I can't think of a single thing I'd ask a lawyer about except an existing or potential legal problem, just asI wouldn't go to the dentist about anything other than my teeth,.

 

[removed account4]

I can't think of a single thing I'd ask a lawyer about except an existing or potential legal problem, just asI wouldn't go to the dentist about anything other than my teeth,.

come on Don, it's only like 150$/hour to shoot the sh*t ..

 

[Don_ih]

come on Don, it's only like 150$/hour to shoot the sh*t ..

I actually laughed.

 

[MattKing]

I can't think of a single thing I'd ask a lawyer about except an existing or potential legal problem, just asI wouldn't go to the dentist about anything other than my teeth,.

The emphasis was on existing...
It's way better to avoid and prevent problems, and lawyers help you do that.

 

[16:9]

Hers is a great story. For me, the accusations of 'immorality' and 'exploitation' are less important than the fact of exposure. The images deserve to be seen, and even if only in retrospect, after her death, she deserves her legacy as a fine photographer.

 

[Pioneer]

Hers is a great story. For me, the accusations of 'immorality' and 'exploitation' are less important than the fact of exposure. The images deserve to be seen, and even if only in retrospect, after her death, she deserves her legacy as a fine photographer.

+1

 

[Arthurwg]

Hers is a great story. For me, the accusations of 'immorality' and 'exploitation' are less important than the fact of exposure. The images deserve to be seen, and even if only in retrospect, after her death, she deserves her legacy as a fine photographer.

Of course you are correct. It's the pictures that are important, and that she made them, All the rest is BS and of no importance. I know of a photography critic that is always carping/complaining about the circumstances of Robert Capa's D-Day pictures when the only thing that matters is that they exist, and that they are spectacular.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hers is a great story. For me, the accusations of 'immorality' and 'exploitation' are less important than the fact of exposure. The images deserve to be seen, and even if only in retrospect, after her death, she deserves her legacy as a fine photographer.

+1

Of course you are correct. It's the pictures that are important, and that she made them, All the rest is BS and of no importance. I know of a photography critic that is always carping/complaining about the circumstances of Robert Capa's D-Day pictures when the only thing that matters is that they exist, and that they are spectacular.

I too appreciate that her work was bought to public purview so that we can all enjoy it. Critics be damned.

 

[Don_ih]

So I assume all of you would be perfectly happy with having someone else display and promote photos you took but never specifically wanted shown to anyone?

 

[CMoore]

So I assume all of you would be perfectly happy with having someone else display and promote photos you took but never specifically wanted shown to anyone?

That is what you have gotten out of these 8 pages..?

 

[Don_ih]

That is what you have gotten out of these 8 pages..?

That was one of the things @awty was talking about - that she was a private person and did not necessarily want to be a famous or even recognized photographer. What did you get out of these pages? I've made other comments in this thread.
The last few comments have been saying all that matters is that the photos can be seen and appreciated. That is fine and dandy, but does it invalidate the concern that she might have wanted to keep the photos private or even destroyed upon her death? After all, a number of those photos were of children under her care, a number were of her personal papers (she took photos of cheques and so on), a number were self-portraits. She may or may not have wanted anyone else to see any of it. Is that not important?