More Alt Process Questions - Van Dyke

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photomc

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The chemistry came in from B&S, so after work made up some Sodium Thiosulphate (20 gm in 1000 ml), coated some paper - platinotype natural, chose a negative - a Pyrocat-HD negative that had dichoric fog, but was cleared with farmers. All set, first paper was give exposure in 3 min intervals, and a time of 15 min was picked (yeah, it's a little dense). Post exposure,washed for 20-30 min, 2-3 min in the Sodium Thiosulphate, then washed for another 10-20 min.

Well the test print looks like a test print, but the 2nd print lookd pretty good - except other than the area outside the image area, there is no real brown color. Did I miss something, or is this really pretty normal? Will post image later today - at work now and the pritn was still wet last night.

Questions:
1. Sodium Thiosulphate - have seen reference to using 5%, then to 30 gm/L, then 20 gm/L...now it's been a while but I'm pretty sure these are not all the same. What was used was 20gm/L which is what came with the kit. Which one?

2. The directions that came with the kit indicated washing for 20-30 min, the fix for 2-3 min, the wash for 5 min. Other info that has been read show much shorter wash times for the first wash 1-5 min, the 1-2 min in the hypo, then longer wash (as in FB paper). So, which is it?

3. The print times seemed long to me, the light box is new 12 - f20T12 BLB's. Using electronic ballast - Thanks, Michael M. - anyway, selected a different negative that I knew had what I expected to be normal exposure - 4x5 negative and did a quick Ziatype - cooked for 6 min, and it was just a bit over cooked - would guess about 41/2 to 5 min would be correct for it..does that sound like resonable time?

Should also mention that the paper used was Platinotype natural - which must say is pretty nice stuff. Since this is Friday, plan to make up some Ziatypes and VanDykes and print using the Stouffer 21-Step Wedge, starting times will be around 4 min....any thoughts? Does this seem like a reasonable next step?

One other question, the split back CP that I am using is from PF and it really does not cover the back completely - which means the paper could be drying out while under the lights - should this matter?

Thanks in advance for the input.
 

Ole

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1: Doesn't really matter, as long as it isn't too strong. More than 100 g/l is too strong, I use one lump in a tray with water. That's precise enough. Did you notice the print developing in the fixer? :smile:

2: I do the latter: Wash some minutes, fix twice the time it takes for the colour to stop changing, wash until the next print is ready for processing - about 20 minutes.

3: No idea - I either use the sun, or a completely different light source. Printing speed is slightly higher than cyanotype, in my experience.

(4:smile: Yes, good idea.
(5:smile: No, shouldn't matter at all.
 

smieglitz

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Mike,

You might try using a weak (2%) citric acid bath in place of the initial wash for a couple minutes in order to clear the residual iron salts better. I follow the citric acid bath with a few changes of water and then use two successive baths of 2% sodium thiosulphate (hypo) for about 1.5 minutes each (dumping the first bath and recycling the second bath into the first fix bottle after each use). After a quick rinse, my VDBs get a Hypo Clearing Agent treatment for about 3 minutes and then an extended wash of at least 10 minutes. I follow this by using Clerc's gold toner until the desired purple-brown color is attained and then wash the print again for 20-30 minutes.

Joe
 
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photomc

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Ole said:
1: Doesn't really matter, as long as it isn't too strong. More than 100 g/l is too strong, I use one lump in a tray with water. That's precise enough. Did you notice the print developing in the fixer? :smile:.

That is what I thought a bit strange...the only thing I really noticed was the overcoating was all that became much darker, some of the shadows did show just a slight change.

[/QUOTE]


Joe, Thanks for the idea about the weak CA bath..just read about that one.
 
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photomc

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News from the Alternative DR....

This may or may not be news to everyone else..when I got home from work, coated a couple of sheets for Van Dyke printing. Just like last night, the first print was allowed to dry for a couple of minutes (not unlike the Ziatypes) then dried with a low fan. Into the contact frame and under the UV light....

...... The next paper was allowed to dry for about 20-30 minutes, so when the first exposure was complete, washed, into the hypo and then washed, the 2nd went under the UV light to develop..Imagine my surprise when the 2nd print came out looking like a Van Dyke and not a silver print with a dark brown border. I am repeating the test right now..paper is drying, but can anyone confirm that the amount of mositure in the paper does/does not affect the way Van Dykes look?

As always, Thanks for the input..
 

smieglitz

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photomc said:
...but can anyone confirm that the amount of mositure in the paper does/does not affect the way Van Dykes look?...

I've seen VDB prints by students pinted before completely dry. They have a mottled look with gray splotches as well as the typical VDB color. I've also seen brown prints shifts more gray/neutral after processing when completely dry and put into a heated drymount press to be flattened.

Joe
 
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Just based on my reading...I thought VDB was one of the processes that you can affect tone of by drastic humidity changes (basically whatever the normal humidity equilibrium is for no special effort at the time you use it, vs. intentionally humidifying the paper before use...I can't remember if it's before exposure or before putting into first post-exposure solution. Method was to place paper over a tray of water, with support so it doesn't sag into the tray. You would probably be hard pressed to precisely control paper humidity beyond aiming for the high extreme.

Hopefully someone can lead you to either a specific readable link or share their hands-on (as opposed to 'armchair') experience.

Murray
 

donbga

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photomc said:
Questions:
1. Sodium Thiosulphate - have seen reference to using 5%, then to 30 gm/L, then 20 gm/L...now it's been a while but I'm pretty sure these are not all the same. What was used was 20gm/L which is what came with the kit. Which one?


Use a 2 to 3% solution and it is important to be precise. I personally reccomend and use Sandy King's fixer formula given in his article for Kallitype printing on the Unblinking Eye

"Add 50g sodium thiosulfate, 10g sodium carbonate and 2g sodium sulfite to 750ml water. Stir. When dissolved, add water to 1000ml. "

This formula prevents image bleaching. 1 liter will do 2-3 8x10 prints. I make up 8 or 9 gallons of a concentrated stock solution and dilute for use. To make a concentrated solution mix at 4x the concentration; dilute 1:3 for use.

2. The directions that came with the kit indicated washing for 20-30 min, the fix for 2-3 min, the wash for 5 min. Other info that has been read show much shorter wash times for the first wash 1-5 min, the 1-2 min in the hypo, then longer wash (as in FB paper). So, which is it?

Follow Joe's instructions for washing!

3. The print times seemed long to me, the light box is new 12 - f20T12 BLB's. Using electronic ballast - Thanks, Michael M. - anyway, selected a different negative that I knew had what I expected to be normal exposure - 4x5 negative and did a quick Ziatype - cooked for 6 min, and it was just a bit over cooked - would guess about 41/2 to 5 min would be correct for it..does that sound like resonable time?

7 to 15 minutes are typical. You can't draw comparison's between Ziatype times and VDB other than to say that the VDB is slower.


> Should also mention that the paper used was Platinotype natural - which

This paper works fine for VDB.

must say is pretty nice stuff. Since this is Friday, plan to make up some Ziatypes and VanDykes and print using the Stouffer 21-Step Wedge, starting times will be around 4 min....any thoughts? Does this seem like a reasonable next step?

If you are looking for your minimum printing time for Ziatype or VDB 4 minutes will probably be too short, but you need to discover what works for you.


> which means the paper could be drying out while under the lights - should this matter?
>

Yes! Humidity plays a role with VDB but not to the degree it does with palladium printing. All alt processes are affected to one degree or another by humidity.

If you can't get a printing frame with a back that covers fully use a piece of mylar behind the paper that extends beyond the edges of the back.

BTW, kits are convienient but a lot more expensive than purchasing your own chemicals and mixing them so think about that for long term savings.

Good Luck,

Don Bryant
 

donbga

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Murray@uptowngallery said:
Just based on my reading...I thought VDB was one of the processes that you can affect tone of by drastic humidity changes

Murray

Avoid drastic changes in humidity to maintain consistent results. Use toners to control the the color of the print. Basically a properly processed VDB brown print has a rich brown apperance in the shadows and midtones. Poorly made VDBs have a yellow brown apperance.

Don Bryant
 
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