Modern way of creating microphotographs/microform?

AgX · Apr 4, 2019

What the OP might investigate in are microfilm recorders, a subbreed within film recorders. They are intended to at least go down to 16mm film.

But in the microfilm business too there was a technological standstill. I assume the most modern machines to be 10-15 years old.

There also is the field of data-to-film (the OP already hinted at it) where only bits (no human-readable information) are exposed on film. (Also a field in coma...)

calebarchie · Apr 4, 2019

^forgot about the steppers, that is modern form of optical reduction. Bit not realistic for OP haha

calebarchie · Apr 4, 2019

AgX said:
What the OP might investigate in are microfilm recorders, a subbreed within film recorders. They are intended to at least go down to 16mm film.

But in the microfilm business too there was a technological standstill. I assume the most modern machines to be 10-15 years old.

That is because it is dealing with analogue content. Technology has moved to digital domain, OP is looking for quaint solution. I think optical M discs look pretty cool.

Bill Burk · Apr 4, 2019

What about visiting a computer chip manufacturing facility and investigate what they are doing to make microphotographic images on silicon

jsmoove · Apr 4, 2019

Hi again all, sorry I probably should have posted in the hybrid section after all.
@calebarchie Yep still thinking about it haha. Trying to modernly do something like the IBM photostore chip...without the ginormous imaging machines. -->

@AgX I think microfilm recorder is probably a great modern way about going at it....too bad they cost an insane amount of money!
But maybe if I found a real life connection in an archives place or something, I could try some stuff out on their machine.
For instance just going to the first suggestions in google: https://www.book2net.net/index.php/en/products/computer-output-microfilm
Is 12000 dpi. Im not sure how or what kind of imaging system you would need to read the film back. I have no idea what kind of lens and stuff is used....any idea?

@nmp Lol! That thing is huge!

Bill Burk · Apr 4, 2019

There are always 8mm movie camera lenses.

jsmoove · Apr 4, 2019

@Bill Burk Thats an interesting idea....where would one even look to find a facility that would do that ?

Bill Burk · Apr 4, 2019

Intel's got factories in Ireland

jsmoove · Apr 6, 2019

How would one determine the lp/mm for the output of a 35mm 4k film recorder?

jsmoove · Apr 6, 2019

@Bill Burk Just need to get myself over to Ireland!

AgX · Apr 6, 2019

jsmoove said:
How would one determine the lp/mm for the output of a 35mm 4k film recorder?

One only can guess, as the optical stage is inbetween. The theoretical best would be if each pixel could be exposed on the film, and then at sufficient contrast and that only for b&W. For colour it even gets more complicated...

jsmoove · Apr 6, 2019

@AgX I see, that answer actually helps me understand a bit....so what are the main obstacles inbetween? What is the biggest thing preventing each pixel from being written directly?
If each pixel in 4k could be exposed, so 4096 x 2160 pixels, what is the optimum method of retrieving those same pixels back with an imaging system? I mean, type of lens mostly...I have no idea to be frank.

jsmoove · Apr 7, 2019

@AgX And another question to throw it in the pile....how is generation loss calculated for a photographic system?
Can you compare the original image to the one resolved by lens and calculate the loss difference between them?

AgX · Apr 7, 2019

You add the inverse of the resolutions. However the concept of resolution has its shortcomings, at least one needs to define it better. The concept of MTF is much informative.

Seen your questions on Apug so far, why don't you attend classes, or buy some old textbooks on photoengineering?

jsmoove · Apr 7, 2019

@AgX Thats what I've been told elsewhere too, to add the inverse of the resolutions....not quite sure what that means. Would a program such as MTF mapper help me? https://sourceforge.net/p/mtfmapper/home/Home/
Guess I can just give it a go.
I'd love to get some books, just in the middle of travelling though NZ right now haha

AgX · Apr 7, 2019

With such test at best(!) you could set up the MTF of certain imaging chain like taking a photograph witzh a camera on film. (With this very programm you would have to read that film (which involveds a scanner and thus intruduces its own faults...).

But you wanted to establish the MTF of a system in advance out of the MTFs of sytem parts, data that you typically would not have.

calebarchie · Apr 10, 2019

@jsmoove Yes, but is it for the same reasons (geocaching?) All I can say you are very dedicated or interested in all of it.

Not sure relevance of discussions of MTF towards what you are trying to achieve (unless you are considering optical approach) but in film recorder resolution can never be higher that source (CRT resolution) no matter amount of reduction. the process and optics themselves will always be deteriorating (multiple generation). Unless you modify and find a way change optics so it further reduces entire CRT onto even smaller portion of film (hence allow more 'portions') to be developed in the 35mm area. But that amount of serious reverse engineering would be way, way more than just attempting to do it optically! (how would you shift the CRT or film position for example?)

jsmoove · Apr 19, 2019

@Bill Burk I found this an interesting read so far: http://www.lithoguru.com/scientist/lithobasics.html

jsmoove · Apr 21, 2019

@AgX Would a digital enlarger work to create microform on paper? Such as: http://de-vere.com/products-504ds-digital-enlarger/ With a certain lens?

calebarchie · Apr 21, 2019

The LCD and paper is limiting factor in resolution, IIRC 17MP only? FIlm recorder is much more, better off experimenting with 8x10 film recorded with LVT and put in enlarger with custom optic to reduce down to micro level and would have to be on film.

jsmoove · Oct 9, 2021

Im rereading this thread,
If I wanted optical reduction, but to expose UV light instead (for an image in cyanotype)....would a UV projector be the right direction? If I wanted to expose in the range of 300 -350nm.
(cyanotype microfiche): https://cargocollective.com/kellyon...alogue-of-the-University-of-Utah-s-Microfiche These seem to be contact prints of microfilm though, not directly made.
The other question I have is, I've read that flipping a lens board in an enlarger provides optical reduction, is this true?

Bronson Dugnutt · Oct 9, 2021

jsmoove said:
Im rereading this thread,
The other question I have is, I've read that flipping a lens board in an enlarger provides optical reduction, is this true?

See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/using-8mm-movie-camera-lens-in-enlarger.185187/ for some discussion around this.

To create them in the first place on film, I'd use something like a Nikon R10 (or any macro capable sub-mini format) then contact print the super8 negative to whatever. You could make enlarged internegatives for contact printing or directly via an enlarger (UV in the case of cyanotype https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/making-an-uv-enlarger.92824/).

4season · Oct 9, 2021

jsmoove said:
Im rereading this thread

By the way, I just encountered this video which would seem to answer your original 2019 question:
I'm kind of surprised by how straightforward the process of creating a microdot really can be,and I guess a semi-modern approach would be to display an image on a computer screen and photograph that on high-resolution film in a similar manner.

jsmoove · Oct 9, 2021

Thanks for the links.
I'm wondering about reducing a large digital image to 35mm, but for cyantoype. Computer output microfilm/COM seems the most logical way in terms of definition, but the cost of these machines is insane unless there are older models im not aware of.
Shooting a high res computer screen with a regular SLR makes sense, though wouldn't the UV transmission be cut off? Lenses that allow UV transmission are really expensive right?
UV enlargers seem to be a hot topic on photrio!
The thing is for a UV-modified enlarger is that I can't use digital images directly. (?)
I saw one guy using his phone in the negative holder, I suppose that's one way.
I do like the idea of using an enlarger.

Bronson Dugnutt · Oct 9, 2021

The UV light is only important in the creation of the cyanotype print. Going from a digital image to an analog optical medium is as simple as photographing, with film, the highest fidelity digital rendering (an lcd with the appropriate pixel area & pitch spec to meet your resolution/moire requirements) with a particular lens combination & magnification, and then printing that negative with UV or sunlight. Some people go directly to printing with a digital negative and skip the 35mm film step. Others build optical UV enlargers. Pick your poison.

Most enlarger lens are designed to pass UV wavelengths and aren't prohibitively expensive.

Modern way of creating microphotographs/microform?

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