Mirror slap, 6X/ amd 6X6

[Claire Senft]

My advice for MF camera is no different than it is for 35mm. Always use a tripod of priven stability with the mirror locked up unless not using it will lead to better photos.

 

[Bruce Appel]

Another point to remember is that sharpness is going to be determined by the weakest link in your entire system. If you have a shakey enlarger, a poor enlarger lens, an enlarger out of alignment, or anything else in the whole process that is not up to snuff, all the mirror damping/locking in the world is not going to help.

 

[Soeren]

Well true as that is things do sum up and if the neg is blurred nothing can be done to rescue that shot except making a virtue out of the unsharpness. Allways aim to have the best possible neg to work with no matter how poor your enlarger, -lens or whatever is at the time being. Things may change and you may get that DevereleicazoneVIRodenstockcompononearthequakesafedingie some day and want to print some of your old negs.
Cheers Søren

 

[Claire Senft]

Soeren where do I get one of those unpronounable dingies? Does Morten use one? Does it come with a free bottle of Rodinal?

 

[Soeren]

Soeren where do I get one of those unpronounable dingies? Does Morten use one? Does it come with a free bottle of Rodinal?

Sorry Claire they are only for the high priest and inner circle of COR. But then again if you make a donation or sacrifice to the church, say $100.000.000 we may make an exception
Cheers Søren

 

[Soeren]

Oh yes offcource we'll throw in a free bottle of Rodinal
Søren

 

[rfshootist]

Well true as that is things do sum up and if the neg is blurred nothing can be done to rescue that shot except making a virtue out of the unsharpness. Allways aim to have the best possible neg to work with no matter how poor your enlarger, -lens or whatever is at the time being.
Cheers Søren

Or in other words if the neg is blurred from shake you can forget the rest of the chain.
As most amateurs i haven't really learned photography as properly and systematically as a professional has to learn it, I had to teach myself. Tho I heard some old farts often say a tripod should be welded at the bottom plate of each camera I kept this always as the usual exaggeration of some old stuffed shirts.

First when I watched the results of a lab experiment, which made clear how close you can come with a 35 camera to MF (concerning the pure resolution performance only) if there is zero-vibe , then I understood what the old wise men were talking about.

Tho one has of course to consider this all in the relation to our limits of perception it is a fact that the slightest motion of the camera influences the resolution.
Not beeing a stickler for principles I think one should keep this in mind if one wants sharp photos instead of quite sharp photos.

Especially among the 35mm RF shooters there is that fuss about the steady hand and all those techniques of holding and breathing and what else kinda tricks you can get sharp results with from 1/4 sec.

Watching the results then you see the guy has no clue what a sharp photo is,
and if you say THAT the answer will be that "of course" the photo can't look like 1/250 but for him it is "worth to keep" Worth to keep for him was sharp ?

The lack of linguistic precision nirrors the lack of knowledge perfectly here

If one really wants to see what the $2500 RF lens can achieve technically the the most dumb beanbag on a car roof is better than any dirty old trick from the shooting range. And sometimes it is satsfying to to see that as a photog you still can't buy quality, you have to produce it !

Thanks again for all input, as I see it now a C330 could be the solution I think, I am a TLR nuts anyway

Bertram
"Lord let it rain a bit extra money, I need a Rolleiflex Wide !!! "

 

[mikebarger]

This has been an informative thread.

The blad can be detached from the tripod, and using the pre-release isn't mandatory

I already cheat by not using the D5 focussing aid every time.

Mike

 

[mikebarger]

Should have added, this must be why I don't think the Sinar is much slower to use than the blad.

Mike

 

[Soeren]

Or in other words if the neg is blurred from shake you can forget the rest of the chain.
As most amateurs i haven't really learned photography as properly and systematically as a professional has to learn it, I had to teach myself. Tho I heard some old farts often say a tripod should be welded at the bottom plate of each camera I kept this always as the usual exaggeration of some old stuffed shirts.

Thats about the conclusion I would draw from my experiment. The conection between camera/tripodhead/tripod is far more important than the actual weight of the tripod. Nodifference between a 2,6kg and a 6kg mannfrotto tripod.
regards Søren

 

[rfshootist]

Thats about the conclusion I would draw from my experiment. The conection between camera/tripodhead/tripod is far more important than the actual weight of the tripod. Nodifference between a 2,6kg and a 6kg mannfrotto tripod.
regards Søren

Absolutely. If the camera and the tripod (ball-)head together unite to swinging system the legs of the tripod can be as stiff as a gun barrel , the pics will be blurred anyway. Worst are the long fast telezooms, even a bit wind can get a prob.
Perfect the monopods with a large round platform, used without a ballhead tho.

bertram

 

[RJS]

I have a Rollei SL 66 I almost never hand hold. I placed a glass of water on the camera while on the tripod and released the shutter. Lots of waves in the water. Mirror slap. After releasing the mirror first and then the shutter, absoloutely no waves. I think it all depends on what you are willing to accept. There is obviously movement with the Rollei from the mirror - how much and how it would affect a negative seems a matter for experimentation.

 

[Maine-iac]

I have a contrarion view I suppose. I have used an sl-66 and kiev k60, and can handhold both down to about 1/60 with decent, not stellar results. I think it has more to do with my ability than mirror shake.

Perhaps it is your ability, but the SL66 always had the least amount of mirror vibration/slap of any medium format SLR. It was renowned for being hand-holdable, even though I almost always use mine on a tripod. But I have seen many (Germans particularly) traipsing around Europe as tourists with an SL66 slung around their necks and no tripod.

As for the Pentax, having owned and used them extensively, I discovered that the mirror slap, while pretty bad, doesn't really affect sharpness so much. It is really more mirror recoil or bounce, which occurs after the shutter has closed. While I have occasionally used it handheld with decent results (not below 1/125th) it's far better to use it on the tripod. The 6X7 that I do use handheld successfully down to 1/60th is the Fuji 6X7 rangefinder. There's no mirror to slap, and the leaf shutter, while noisy, makes hand-holding very possible. I sometimes carry a monopod, and this helps brace it for use down to 1/30th, if it's not too windy, but generally anything below 1/60th, I want the tripod.

Larry

 

[poutnik]

Bertram, I've been using the Pentax 67II for some time, and yes you can really feel/hear the mirror slap. But it usually doesn't impede the photos, I've succesfully handheld shots of 1/60s (with a 55mm lens) and sometimes when well braced with elbows on a table or leaning to a tree/lamppost even using 1/30s.

When shooting a 135mm lens, I am able to hold 1/125s and sometimes 1/60s (with the same as above).

But as a general rule, if not using the tripod, I press the camera rather hard to my face, have my elbows stuck above the hips, and legs well apart for better stability. I would not be afraid of holding the Beast...

Hope this helps...

Jiri

 

[Mike Kovacs]

I'm surprised with the SL66 water test that you don't see ripples with the mirror locked up. Its my experience so far with mine that the mirror is very well dampened, and that most of the racket/vibration comes after the exposure when the mirror returns. (recall, unlike many of its contemporaries, this camera has an instant return mirror)

 

[naturephoto1]

One thing that no one has addressed in this thread is the affect of the shutter. These larger medium format SLRs with their largers shutters (particularly those with the in camera focal plane and not as much the in lens leaf shutters) increase vibration and should contribute to the loss of sharpness and add to the woes of mirror induced vibrations.

Rich

 

[psvensson]

I use a Bronica SQ-A, and haven't had any major problems with mirror slap except at 1/8 and 1/15 with a flimsy tripod. I seems to be a fairly well dampened body. Just judging by how they feel in the hand, both the Bronica SQ-Ai and the Hasselblad 500 series have a lot more kick.

 

[Russ Young]

There's something that has not been addressed thus far and that's WHEN the mirror slap occurs. I shot a Bornica S2a in the seventies that had horrendous mirror slap. If you placed a US quarter on the body, slap would throw it up in the air a few millimeters. Never an unsharp shot at 1/2 second. The slap was on the mirror's return.
Russ

 

[DBP]

What I have found occasionally with my Kiev 60 is that the camera is so heavy that shear inertia tends to reduce vibrations. I have shot it handheld (bracing my elbow against my knee) at 1/125 with the 250mm Jupiter 36 without trouble. The combined weight of the camera and lens dampens most vibrations, in a way you would never find with 35mm.

Of course, I've been known to shoot the Speed Graphic hand held, so I may be more tolerant.

BTW, the fit and finish on Gevorg's Arax cameras is superb.

 

[psvensson]

There's something that has not been addressed thus far and that's WHEN the mirror slap occurs.
Russ

This is undoubtedly a factor, but only on cameras that have automatic mirror return. I gather Pentax 67 does, but Hasselblads, Bronica SQs and Mamiya 67s don't.

 

[poutnik]

This is undoubtedly a factor, but only on cameras that have automatic mirror return. I gather Pentax 67 does, but Hasselblads, Bronica SQs and Mamiya 67s don't.

Yes, the Pentax's mirror does return automatically with a second slap, but that is not usually a problem . The first slap is just before opening the shutter.

As to the shutter induced vibration, when handholding I don't find it a problem, because this one goes INTO your hand as you're holding the camera. And your (or at least my) hand is quite good at dampening this. [in contrast to the mirror slap, which tries to move the camera up from your hands.] The shutter vibration is more of a problem on a tripod especially in portrait orientation when the camera is way off the axis of the tripod. I've found that with times of (1/30s) 1/15s to 1/2s it's better not to use a cable release, but hold the camera in both hands instead.

And yes, the sheer weight of the camera is enough to let you handhold what would be impossible/difficult with a feather-weight 35mm...

Jiri

 

[Papa Tango]

Another solution?

As someone about to become an RB user, I have acquired a dual cable release. The claim is that it will send up the mirror first and then drop the shutter. The way I see it, if that is true my FOV would only be interrupted for a few seconds and the vibration from the shutter in the lens would be minimal.

Now, I have modified a grip to accept this release instead of the provided button and lever at the bottom. Has anyone had any experiences with this sort of cable release and the RB?

 

[Papa Tango]

???

So, no one has any experience with the mirror-up cable release doing handheld? Tell me it ain't so...