Minilab chemistry for C-41/E-6/ECN-2 bleaching & fixing, but developing & stabilizing as well - possible?

[abrakafocus]

Hey y’all! Hope everyone’s doing well.

I’ve been searching through Photrio for some time, but I’ve only found fragmented answers or isolated discussions — mostly without any visible results (please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is: Is it possible to use Minilab RA-4 chemistry for C-41, E-6, or ECN-2 film processes — not only for bleaching and fixing, but also for developing and stabilizing?

I have a Kodak Flexicolor LORR LU Developer Replenisher with the matching Starter, but I’m struggling to source the bleach (BL) and fixer (FX) components. They’re hard to find, which is why I’m wondering:

Can Minilab RA-4 chemistry substitute for C-41 / E-6 / ECN-2 bleaching, fixing, developing, or stabilizing steps?

Any insights or experience with compatible substitutes would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[koraks]

Welcome to Photrio!

Is it possible to use Minilab RA-4 chemistry for C-41, E-6, or ECN-2 film processes — not only for bleaching and fixing, but also for developing and stabilizing?

Simple answer: no.

W.r.t. bleaching & fixing: paper and film are very different in terms of silver content and the nature of this silver content, which very strongly affects the type of bleach and fix needed as well as the process conditions. Between C41&ECN2 film and E6 there are also distinct differences. ECN2 and C41 film are fairly comparable in this regard.

W.r.t. development: while you will get an image if you cross process everything in the same developer, the results will be poor even if you experimentally determine processing parameters (time & temperature) that yield the best compromise. It'll still be, well, crap.

There are some ways in which you could simplify the chemistry setup. For instance, you could technically speaking use a C41 fixer for C41, ECN2, E6 film and RA4 paper (if you run the paper through a non-standard bleach-then-fix process instead of a regular blix process). You could likewise use a C41 bleach for ECN2 film as well as RA4 paper, and possibly also for E6 film (you may have to adjust bleach time for the latter). You can cross-process ECN2 film in C41 developer and vice versa, and some people find the results OK - I personally don't agree as the results are very much sub-bar. But if you only scan your film and don't intend to optically print it, you may be able to sort of get away with it (but it's a compromise).

The simple answer is that if you want good results, you should use the specific chemistry intended for the film/paper.

 

[abrakafocus]

Welcome to Photrio!



Simple answer: no.

W.r.t. bleaching & fixing: paper and film are very different in terms of silver content and the nature of this silver content, which very strongly affects the type of bleach and fix needed as well as the process conditions. Between C41&ECN2 film and E6 there are also distinct differences. ECN2 and C41 film are fairly comparable in this regard.

W.r.t. development: while you will get an image if you cross process everything in the same developer, the results will be poor even if you experimentally determine processing parameters (time & temperature) that yield the best compromise. It'll still be, well, crap.

There are some ways in which you could simplify the chemistry setup. For instance, you could technically speaking use a C41 fixer for C41, ECN2, E6 film and RA4 paper (if you run the paper through a non-standard bleach-then-fix process instead of a regular blix process). You could likewise use a C41 bleach for ECN2 film as well as RA4 paper, and possibly also for E6 film (you may have to adjust bleach time for the latter). You can cross-process ECN2 film in C41 developer and vice versa, and some people find the results OK - I personally don't agree as the results are very much sub-bar. But if you only scan your film and don't intend to optically print it, you may be able to sort of get away with it (but it's a compromise).

The simple answer is that if you want good results, you should use the specific chemistry intended for the film/paper.

Thank you for the confirmation! I was expecting this kind of answer; I just needed a bit of justification. Small kits are used up quickly, and moving to anything bigger than a Jobo is costly—so, sadly, that’s the story. Achieving great results remains the priority, of course. Cheers!

Just one more question: since RA-4 BL/FX baths are not an option, is it possible to use Fuji Environeg C41-RA Bleach or Tetenal Ergoline C-41 RA Bleachbath with an alternative fixer in small rotary systems? Thanks!

 

[koraks]

is it possible to use Fuji Environeg C41-RA Bleach or Tetenal Ergoline C-41 RA Bleachbath with an alternative fixer in small rotary systems?

For what purpose? Film, paper; what kind?

 

[abrakafocus]

For what purpose? Film, paper; what kind?

Film(s). Thanks!

 

[koraks]

Well, that's what they're intended for, so sure. At least for C41 and it will also work for ECN2 (I use Fuji EnviroNeg bleach for both). Bleach times may be longer for E6 and there can be additional caveats. With E6, you may need to add an extra stabilizer step (not a C41 final rinse, which is not truly a stabilizer) if the stabilizer is part of the bleach bath. I guess that would depend on the rest of the E6 process you're running, so it's more difficult to comment.

 

[abrakafocus]

Well, that's what they're intended for, so sure. At least for C41 and it will also work for ECN2 (I use Fuji EnviroNeg bleach for both). Bleach times may be longer for E6 and there can be additional caveats. With E6, you may need to add an extra stabilizer step (not a C41 final rinse, which is not truly a stabilizer) if the stabilizer is part of the bleach bath. I guess that would depend on the rest of the E6 process you're running, so it's more difficult to comment.

That’s great to hear, really! I’m currently deciding between two options: a Tetenal Ergoline C41-RA 5L Bleachbath kit (an older warehouse batch for around 40 €) or a new Fuji EnviroNeg Bleach for about 110 €. Unfortunately, I haven’t found any fixer available at the moment.


How do you usually dilute (or mix) the Fuji EnviroNeg? I typically prepare small batches of about 0.5 L. Hope I'm not asking too much. Thanks!

 

[koraks]

The bleach lasts pretty much forever regardless of how you store it. So I just take from the jug what I need and put the cap back on.

 

[abrakafocus]

So, practically speaking, I could use the complete C-41 RA chemistry in my Jobo rotary system, right? Looking at some local distributors’ stock, it seems I can actually get the full Fujihunt EnviroNeg set — developer, starter (if needed), bleach, fixer, and stabilizer. Does that sound correct? Thanks!

 

[koraks]

Yes, that chemistry will work fine in a Jobo and also in manually agitated tanks etc.

 

[abrakafocus]

Thank you! Do you have any recommendations for solutions and development times? I usually work with a Jobo 1510 plus the extension, or a 1520 with the 1530.

 

[koraks]

Processing times are as indicated by the manufacturer. For C41 the development time is 3m15s at 37.8C. Bleach & fix depend on the chemistry; refer to the documentation of the manufacturer. The volumes you need to use are indicated on the Jobo tanks.

 

[gary mulder]

 

[abrakafocus]

OK, so if I understand correctly, you develop films in your Jobo processor using roughly the same C-41 recommended times, regardless of whether it’s Fujihunt EnviroNeg RA chemistry? I hope I’m not mistaken. Thank you.

 

[mshchem]

I have been using Kodak Flexicolor C-41RA chemistry for years. The only thing specific to the rapid C-41RA process is the bleach and the fixer. The developer and final rinse stays the same as regular slower C41 processes

I always use a Jobo, always 3'15" for developer at 38°C. As Koraks has said, the bleach lasts a very long time. 5 L jug has lasted me for several years no trouble. I use developer, fixer and final rinse one shot. Jobo has minimum volumes published. I always use at least 125mL of solution per roll 120 requires, at a minimum a 1520 tank, which will hold 2x120 and requires 240mL of solution
Universal fixer works well too Fuji sells a fixer (Unilec IIIRC?) that works with C-41 and E-6. Just make sure negatives are adequately fixed.

Kodak has said in years past that the C-41 RA bleach times can be extended if you're using an automated processor, no big deal.

Always use final rinse off the machine, minimum agitation.

 

[koraks]

OK, so if I understand correctly, you develop films in your Jobo processor using roughly the same C-41 recommended times, regardless of whether it’s Fujihunt EnviroNeg RA chemistry? I hope I’m not mistaken. Thank you.

The development time for C41 is standardized. This is also true for RA chemistry. Check the manufacturer's datasheet if in doubt. The rapid access bit comes in for the consecutive steps as @mshchem indicates above, which take a lot less time than original C41 did. I.e. bleach and fix are both in the 90 second range or so. I always bleach & fix longer because I want to be safe and use them replenished (bleach) or more dilute (fix), and it doesn't hurt to prolong both of these steps.

 

[abrakafocus]

I have been using Kodak Flexicolor C-41RA chemistry for years. The only thing specific to the rapid C-41RA process is the bleach and the fixer. The developer and final rinse stays the same as regular slower C41 processes

I always use a Jobo, always 3'15" for developer at 38°C. As Koraks has said, the bleach lasts a very long time. 5 L jug has lasted me for several years no trouble. I use developer, fixer and final rinse one shot. Jobo has minimum volumes published. I always use at least 125mL of solution per roll 120 requires, at a minimum a 1520 tank, which will hold 2x120 and requires 240mL of solution
Universal fixer works well too Fuji sells a fixer (Unilec IIIRC?) that works with C-41 and E-6. Just make sure negatives are adequately fixed.

Kodak has said in years past that the C-41 RA bleach times can be extended if you're using an automated processor, no big deal.

Always use final rinse off the machine, minimum agitation.

Thank you, I really appreciate your answer!

The development time for C41 is standardized. This is also true for RA chemistry. Check the manufacturer's datasheet if in doubt. The rapid access bit comes in for the consecutive steps as @mshchem indicates above, which take a lot less time than original C41 did. I.e. bleach and fix are both in the 90 second range or so. I always bleach & fix longer because I want to be safe and use them replenished (bleach) or more dilute (fix), and it doesn't hurt to prolong both of these steps.

Thank you once again; I truly appreciate your support.

A local distributor has some old stock — one 5 L Tetenal C-41 RA Bleachbath. I just hope it hasn’t deteriorated or left any residue over time. Unfortunately, they don’t have any RA fixer.

Other distributors have the complete Fujihunt RA chemistry set available — developer, bleach, fixer, and stabilizer — all in fresh condition.

I’m just looking for some practical workarounds to avoid relying on the small kits, which I tend to use up quite fast.

 

[koraks]

A local distributor has some old stock — one 5 L Tetenal C-41 RA Bleachbath. I just hope it hasn’t deteriorated or left any residue over time.

There may be some crud along the neck of the bottle. This wouldn't worry me. In principle a modern PDTA-based C41 bleach (basically anything made by a reputable manufacturer over the last 20 years or so) should have a pretty much indefinite shelf life.

I’m just looking for some practical workarounds to avoid relying on the small kits, which I tend to use up quite fast.

You're on the right track. Several people, including myself use minilab chemistry and it's the most economical way if you process a reasonable volume of film. In fact, it doesn't even take that much 'production' to reap the benefits of scaling up to minilab from small kits.

 

[abrakafocus]

There may be some crud along the neck of the bottle. This wouldn't worry me. In principle a modern PDTA-based C41 bleach (basically anything made by a reputable manufacturer over the last 20 years or so) should have a pretty much indefinite shelf life.

As for the crud, they also have a Tetenal E-6 2.5 L kit, which seems fine overall, except for the Blix Part 2. I assume it has oxidized or something similar, because I’ve seen many colleagues mention the short shelf life of BX2. I guess it’s probably not worth taking the risk? Thanks.

You're on the right track. Several people, including myself use minilab chemistry and it's the most economical way if you process a reasonable volume of film. In fact, it doesn't even take that much 'production' to reap the benefits of scaling up to minilab from small kits.

With your help, I’m sure that would be the right direction. Small kits get used up very quickly.

 

[koraks]

Tetenal E-6 2.5 L kit, which seems fine overall, except for the Blix Part 2. I assume it has oxidized or something similar, because I’ve seen many colleagues mention the short shelf life of BX2. I guess it’s probably not worth taking the risk?

The part of a blix that typically goes bad is the fixer part. Once it starts to throw down a precipitate, it should no longer be considered fit for use. The other concentrates in the kit may still be OK. The broken fixer concentrate could probably be replaced with a solution of ammonium thiosulfate. This could be prepared from a regular rapid fixer, but you'd have to adjust the pH of the final blix to be in the proper range. I think the pH of a blix is fairly critical for it to work properly.

 

[gary mulder]

I have always found that separate baths for bleaching and fixing gave better colors than one blix bath.

 

[abrakafocus]

The part of a blix that typically goes bad is the fixer part. Once it starts to throw down a precipitate, it should no longer be considered fit for use. The other concentrates in the kit may still be OK. The broken fixer concentrate could probably be replaced with a solution of ammonium thiosulfate. This could be prepared from a regular rapid fixer, but you'd have to adjust the pH of the final blix to be in the proper range. I think the pH of a blix is fairly critical for it to work properly.

That seems both logical and quite a challenge, I have to admit. Thank you!

I have always found that separate baths for bleaching and fixing gave better colors than one blix bath.

Personally, I haven’t noticed much difference, since I process medium volumes and a variety of films — some of them expired and compensated during development — but I do agree that control is better with separate BL and FX baths. Tnx!