Mini Speed Graphic 2x3 lens board adapter and other questions

Dan Fromm · Sep 16, 2014

O-n-F, your example contains a Pacemaker Graphic front standard. The Pacemaker front standard's light trap is a slot that the edge of the stamped sheet metal Pacemaker board slips into.

The OP has a Miniature Speed Graphic, not a 2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic. His camera's front standard has a light trap that is a recess the board fits into. No slot, and the board has no lip.

All the OP has to do to adapt a larger camera's lens board to accept a lens on a Mini Graphic board is:

Drill the board to accept the largest rear cell that has to pass through it.

Cut some wood or opaque plastic or metal strips that are as thick as the Mini Speed's board to lengths that will let them be assembled into a square whose inner opening is as large as the Mini board.

Attach them to the target camera's board.

Make two more strips to use as lens board sliders, attach them.

You're right, the OP could indeed sacrifice a Mini front standard. He'll have to beg or buy one. Now do you understand my comment about the corrupting power of found money?

Old-N-Feeble · Sep 16, 2014

That's true, Dan, but the front mount from a Mini Graphic can be slid out and mounted to another board too. You might want to trim it first though. Also, it adds a bit of extension to the adapted board.

Dan Fromm · Sep 16, 2014

Old-N-Feeble said:
That's true, Dan, but the front mount from a Mini Graphic can be slid out and mounted to another board too. You might want to trim it first though. Also, it adds a bit of extension to the adapted board.

Some years ago I had SKGrimes put a 2x3 Pacemaker standard's light trap on a 2x3 Cambo board. It adds ~ -1 mm extension.

Old-N-Feeble · Sep 16, 2014

Dan Fromm said:
Some years ago I had SKGrimes put a 2x3 Pacemaker standard's light trap on a 2x3 Cambo board. It adds ~ -1 mm extension.

S.K. Grimes is very pricey though. DIY with junk parts is cheap.

Dan Fromm · Sep 16, 2014

Old-N-Feeble said:
S.K. Grimes is very pricey though. DIY with junk parts is cheap.

True, but I couldn't possibly have done as good a job. SKG's board/adapter gives no unintended tilts/swings. Mine would have. One has to know what the job to be done is, whether it has to be done well, one's own limitations, and what the skilled craftsmen can do.

In this case, the OP's stated goal is to try out one lens that he doesn't want to remove from a 2x3 Mini Speed board. Mine was to be able to use all of my lenses on 2x3 Pacemaker boards on a 2x3 Cambo. Not the same problem at all.

The OP has already been advised to bodge the lens on to a board that fits his 4x5 camera and be done with it. That's inexpensive and will let him find out whether the lens is usable on 4x5.

I don't see why the more expensive and roundabout ways of attaining his stated goal are better than cheap and cheerful. Except, of course, that cheap and cheerful isn't the OP's own idea.

Oh, yes. When I want to try out a lens in barrel whose cells won't go in a standard shutter and whose barrel won't fit any of my adapters for front mounting I bodge it on to a board or into a shutter and try it out. If it doesn't seem worth the bother and expense of remounting or having an adapter for front mounting made will I spend the money. First things first.

shutterfinger · Sep 16, 2014

I have a Mini body from 1941 and it has a Bakelite lens board. I received a lens/shutter/lens board from ebay in non operational condition yesterday, it too is for a Miniature Speed and the board is made of Bakelite.
Graflex used engineers rule to lay out their cameras so all measurements are in inch, tenths, hundredths, thousandths.

The pictures are: front left right measurement, top bottom measurement, rear left right reference, rear left right inner measurement, rear top bottom inner measurement, total thickness, bottom edge bevel. The top, left, and right, lip edges are .16 inch, the bottom is .162 inch. ($20 digital caliper)

The back on the Miniature as well as the Anniversary Speed use metal nut plates inserted into the wood body. The Pacemaker Graphics use wood screws direct into the wood. The Graflok back for a Pacemaker will not be a direct fit to the Anniversary or Miniature Speed. The screw holes will not line up but the back will fit the body opening correctly. Modify the back frame to match the Anniversary or Miniature Speed. A special retro fit Graflok back was made for the Anniversary Speed but I do not know if one was made for the Miniature Speed.

Dan Fromm · Sep 16, 2014

shutterfinger said:
A special retro fit Graflok back was made for the Anniversary Speed but I do not know if one was made for the Miniature Speed.

Yes, there was. I've seen several, never owned one. See, for example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miniature-S...01mm-Graflok-Back-2-1-4-X-3-1-4-/261285291879

Old-N-Feeble · Sep 16, 2014

Dan Fromm said:
Yes, there was. I've seen several, never owned one. See, for example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miniature-S...01mm-Graflok-Back-2-1-4-X-3-1-4-/261285291879

Yeah, I thought there was something odd about that one.

StoneNYC · Sep 17, 2014

Thanks guys, and Dan, I've found that often the coverage of older lenses on larger formats seems to work just fine. I put a folding Autographic 116 brownie lens on my 4x5 and it covered just fine.

Sometimes it's just a look that's "retro" and pleasing. The aperture blades are REALLY nice, much rounder than modern lenses, so I'm thinking it will make a nice product lens even being a little wide.

So only individual holder backs, and make my own board.. Got it... Lol.

Roger Hesketh · Sep 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
So only individual holder backs, and make my own board.. Got it... Lol.

Don't forget the Adapta roll 620 and it really is quite easy to make the lens boards out of two squares of thin ply, stuck together. Then sanded to fit.

StoneNYC · Sep 17, 2014

Roger Hesketh said:
Don't forget the Adapta roll 620 and it really is quite easy to make the lens boards out of two squares of thin ply, stuck together. Then sanded to fit.

I think I have one wooden 620 spool, but roll film gets messy and this is 2x3 so it's 6x9 really, not 6x7 so then I would be losing some of the image, it gets messy. I've ordered some film, just one box of HP5+ for now.

Yes I hear you on the lens board but I'll still be keeping my eye out for a junk mini-speed.

Anyone know where to get that flash sync cable?

bdial · Sep 17, 2014

For the flash cord, it's probably either ebay for a vintage one or Paramount Cords for a new one (http://www.paramountcords.com).
You will need a handle, reflector and flash bulbs too. And, I believe, not all flash bulbs are suitable for focal plane shutters. (they need a long burn time as I recall).

Or else, a lens with an x sync shutter.

StoneNYC · Sep 17, 2014

bdial said:
For the flash cord, it's probably either ebay for a vintage one or Paramount Cords for a new one (http://www.paramountcords.com).
You will need a handle, reflector and flash bulbs too. And, I believe, not all flash bulbs are suitable for focal plane shutters. (they need a long burn time as I recall).

Or else, a lens with an x sync shutter.

I will have to read up on sink times again, I know there was like I, and an M, and an X (which became the standard) but I've forgotten which is which, I don't really want to have to deal with flashbulbs, I know I know, honestly it's just a big pain in the ass, and I don't want to have to deal with it, I do have a GRAFLEX flash that takes a massive battery that you probably can't get anymore, I wish they made some kind of adapter for C batteries or something...

It's a strob 250

I also actually have a flash strobe thing that takes flashbulbs I believe somewhere, and I have a few flashbulbs lying around in various sizes, but I'm really not interested in even using them but maybe once for a fun model Photoshoot sometime, and I don't even know what goes with what.

shutterfinger · Sep 17, 2014

Flash bulbs- Type M, 15-20 millisecond rise time, approximately 10 millisecond burn time (usable light output).
Type FP- for use with focal plane shutters, 15 millisecond rise time, type PH 6 for 2x3 cameras 25 millisecond burn time, PH31 have a 55 millisecond burn time.
Type F- gas filled bulbs, 2 to 5 millisecond rise time, 5 millisecond burn time.
Rise time- the time from when power is first applied to the bulb and when the bulb reaches 2/3 of its peak light output.
Burn time- The time from when the bulb reaches 2/3 of its maximum light output on the rise until it falls to 2/3 of its maximum light output. 2/3 of its output is 1/2 stop of exposure.
All flash bulbs should be used at 1/30 second or slower.
See: http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/bulbdatasearch.html library for all the specs for flash bulbs you ever wanted to know and then some.

Your strobe 250 is an electronic flash and will not sync with the FPS.

Leaf shutter sync settings:
X/F- electronic flash, type F flash bulbs.
Red M- Type M flash bulbs using shutter speeds marked in red.
Black M- Type M flash bulbs using shutter speeds marked in black.

Old-N-Feeble · Sep 17, 2014

^^^ He could probably rig something to sync on "T".

StoneNYC · Sep 18, 2014

Thanks shutterfinger, I'll have to see if I can find the actual flash head.

Now what about studio strobes? If I hook the sync cable to the Profoto strobe? Those seem to "burn" longer..?

shutterfinger · Sep 18, 2014

All electronic flash from the built in pop up on SLR's to 1000 watt second studio strobes flash duration is between 1/1000 second full power to 1/10,000 second at the lowest fraction of the max power. Some flash may be even faster.
The only technique that will work is to set the FPS to T, lock the leaf shutter open on T or B, set the aperture for the flash brightness, trip the FPS then when it is fully opened fire the flash then close the FPS. This technique is called open flash. The degree the ambient light will affect the final image is determined by how long the FPS is open and the aperture in use and the ambient light level. My avatar is such a photo. See: www.flickr.com/photos/thirteenthumbs . I used a Kodak Commercial View, Wollensak Vesta in Studio Shutter set to f11 with a 500 and a 300 watt second strobes reflected off white umbrellas, opened the studio shutter, about a second later fired the flash, about a second later closed the studio shutter. The only adjustments made in photoshop were equivalent of dogging and burning and it was minor.

The Graflex Super D was the only camera where the FPS was synchronized for electronic flash and it was set the FPS to T, trip the shutter, and the camera would fire the flash when the film plane was fully open then the FPS was closed by the photographer.

shutterfinger · Sep 18, 2014

This is the solenoid mount for a 2x3 Pacemaker. The solenoid mounts on the top of the board. When energized the lever is pulled back pushing the rod down tripping the shutter.
Such is needed to use the leaf shutter on your camera with flash bulbs. If the shutter had flash sync terminals then electronic flash could be used but you would still need a 2 or 3 cell synchronizer to trip the solenoid.
There are currently none available on ebay but they do show up on occasion.

mhcfires · Sep 18, 2014

I have two MSG's, one has a Graflok back, I found one on ebay a few years ago. It was no problem to retrofit. I made a lensboard for one camera from a piece of 1/4" plywood. It's not too hard to do, you just have to be careful. I have three grafmatic backs for these cameras, I use them only on the graflok back camera. If you use an Adapt A Roll back, you can use 120 film without respooling it, just be sure to use a 620 spool in the take up end.

Good luck with your new camera.

m

Dan Fromm · Sep 18, 2014

shutterfinger said:
All electronic flash from the built in pop up on SLR's to 1000 watt second studio strobes flash duration is between 1/1000 second full power to 1/10,000 second at the lowest fraction of the max power. Some flash may be even faster.

I wish that were so. My Agfa Agfatronic 643CS' flash duration at full power is 1/200.

StoneNYC · Sep 18, 2014

Dan Fromm said:
I wish that were so. My Agfa Agfatronic 643CS' flash duration at full power is 1/200.

Sweet, send it to me

I think for flash work, for now, maybe I'll just try and find a second board and use one with a different lens with an x-sync.

BTW these lenses, do they come off like other lenses? The front elements seem very tight and I'm afraid to turn any harder but would like to clean the elements inside as they are a little dirty.

shutterfinger · Sep 18, 2014

BTW these lenses, do they come off like other lenses? The front elements seem very tight and I'm afraid to turn any harder but would like to clean the elements inside as they are a little dirty.

Yes, they should just unscrew. Grip the lens board/shutter with a towel and the front cell with a rubber jar opening aid. Some rear elements require the mount ring to be removed to gain enough of the cell to get a grip on.
After 60 to 70 years the cells get stuck to the shutter. Sitting the lens/shutter in a 150°F to 200°F oven for 15 to 30 minutes may loosen them. Heat the oven, turn it off, place the shutter in the center, close the door and wait.
Others wrap the shutter in a plastic bag and put it in a freezer for a similar period of time.

StoneNYC · Sep 18, 2014

shutterfinger said:
Yes, they should just unscrew. Grip the lens board/shutter with a towel and the front cell with a rubber jar opening aid. Some rear elements require the mount ring to be removed to gain enough of the cell to get a grip on.
After 60 to 70 years the cells get stuck to the shutter. Sitting the lens/shutter in a 150°F to 200°F oven for 15 to 30 minutes may loosen them. Heat the oven, turn it off, place the shutter in the center, close the door and wait.
Others wrap the shutter in a plastic bag and put it in a freezer for a similar period of time.

Thanks, once I knew it WAS an "unscrew" lens, I just used a towel and some pliers, unlocked easy, no damage or need to heat/freeze it. Appreciate it, now it's super clean!

Started a new thread about the "mysterious" film in the holders.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

If I'm lucky freestyle will have delivered my film tomorrow and I'll be able to shoot some this weekend, if not, I may try cutting some ektascan I have just to shoot "something" with it. I hate cutting down...

mhcfires · Sep 20, 2014

Stone, no photos yet?

m

Old-N-Feeble · Sep 20, 2014

mhcfires said:
Stone, no photos yet?

m

He's too busy with his new 8x10 toys.

Mini Speed Graphic 2x3 lens board adapter and other questions

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