Mini lab seeing increased volume

Berkeley Mike said:

So...Instant Film is the gateway drug to film.

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It could well be. I know a few people who had zero interest in any sort of film camera or product, even seeing me around with my film cameras....who got into the Instax thing and then decided to try 35mm. We need a gateway drug...

MattKing said:

I'm not sure that the "large percentage" part of this statement is correct.
What I think to be correct is that a large percentage of people who are new to darkroom printing first tried shooting and scanning.

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Might be more accurate.

Dodd Camera and Photo here moved their darkroom and film stuff from way in the back corner to a stand up front. Right next to the Sony mirrorless and all the other popular kids. This does indicate something...

Berkeley Mike said:

So...Instant Film is the gateway drug to film.

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Mike, despite that I have given the explanation you are referring to, I am a bit more "conservative" and would not go so far calling instant film the gateway drug to film.
But it certainly is one of the important gateway drugs to film.
Because the market is so big and powerful:
Fujifilm alone has sold about 25 million instax cameras in the last five years.
Additionally there are probably also about a milion people out there using Polaroid.
Let's be cautious and conservative and ignoring all those who already got into instant film five years ago and before.
So looking at only these latest 25 millions:
If only 1,2 or 3 percent of these also start using conventional film, then there are several hundreds of thousands of new conventional film shooters. That would be a number that really does matter. It is / would be significant and important for the market.

mshchem said:

I'm going on vacation with the wife. Tetons, Jackson Hole etc. I packed a D800, a couple extra lenses.

I gave in to my primal instinct. Added a F5, and a grand old Leica and 10 rolls of Fujichrome. Just can't resist putting on a slide show.

I develop everything my self , E6 will go through Fuji chemistry.

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Very good decision! The quality of reversal film is absolutely unique, and the quality of slide projection is absolutely unsurpassed!! Digital projection whith its extremely low resolution, flat look (not the 3D-Look slide projection deliver), inferior colours and extremely high prices is not competitive at all (I have done several comparison tests).
E6 processing at home is extremely easy and cheap. I have started that, too, some years ago.
And here is the relation to our topic in this thread: I know of lots of other photographers who also have started to develop their C41 and E6 films at home.
The prices for used home processors like the Jobo machines have significantly increased over the last years because of increasing demand.
Jobo has introduced two new, improved processors recently due to increasing demand.
And when I talk to bigger film photography shops and online retailers they say film processing at home is gaining popularity.
So that we see lots of labs with increasing demand, and also home processing with increasing demand, is a good signal.

Film-Niko said:

Very good decision! The quality of reversal film is absolutely unique, and the quality of slide projection is absolutely unsurpassed!! Digital projection whith its extremely low resolution, flat look (not the 3D-Look slide projection deliver), inferior colours and extremely high prices is not competitive at all (I have done several comparison tests).
E6 processing at home is extremely easy and cheap. I have started that, too, some years ago.
And here is the relation to our topic in this thread: I know of lots of other photographers who also have started to develop their C41 and E6 films at home.
The prices for used home processors like the Jobo machines have significantly increased over the last years because of increasing demand.
Jobo has introduced two new, improved processors recently due to increasing demand.
And when I talk to bigger film photography shops and online retailers they say film processing at home is gaining popularity.
So that we see lots of labs with increasing demand, and also home processing with increasing demand, is a good signal.

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With the introduction of affordable sub $100 sous vide units home development of C-41 and E-6 is simpler than ever.

Cholentpot said:

sub $100 sous vide units

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My wife pilfered my dark room sous vide for COOKING! Ok, she used it for tenderloins, which were superb.

wyofilm said:

My wife pilfered my dark room sous vide for COOKING! Ok, she used it for tenderloins, which were superb.

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It changed my view on meats I can tell you that much. But a machine that keeps the temp at a degree or two within range? Amazing!

Cholentpot said:

With the introduction of affordable sub $100 sous vide units home development of C-41 and E-6 is simpler than ever.

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From my long years experience I have to say that E6 and C41 home processing is even easier and more comfortable and extremely precise (best quality) with a Jobo processor . But I agree that it is very easy with a sous vide, too.

Film-Niko said:

From my long years experience I have to say that E6 and C41 home processing is even easier and more comfortable and extremely precise (best quality) with a Jobo processor . But I agree that it is very easy with a sous vide, too.

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I can justify a sous vide but not a Jobo. Can't prep dinner in a Jobo...

I can do C-41 with a tempering bath inside a cooler. Never tried E-6.

I could spend time debating the costs or I could go and shoot C-41. If I shoot enough film at one time, I can develop the film myself, but then I have to do all the printing. As long as I can have the film developed and printed, I will use the services and pay the cost.

TomNY said:

My county, which is a suburb of NYC has had exactly ZERO Labs for many years now. Closest is a about half hour away in NJ, I don't know if they send out. I'm patient, I mail mine to The Darkroom with decent results.

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If you work or are near Manhattan, try ColorHouse near Spring St. Been going there for years and they do excellent work quickly.

When I first started going there it was pretty quiet. Now when I drop off some film, on a weekday often there is a line out the door.

FoidPoosening said:

If you work or are near Manhattan, try ColorHouse near Spring St. Been going there for years and they do excellent work quickly.

When I first started going there it was pretty quiet. Now when I drop off some film, on a weekday often there is a line out the door.

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I visited the Photokina last week. Lots of lab owners were there. All I have talked to said they see increasing demand. At the Fotoimpex booth a French lab owner said he is now processing 800 rolls per day. Demand at his lab exploded in the last months.

Angarian said:

I visited the Photokina last week. Lots of lab owners were there. All I have talked to said they see increasing demand. At the Fotoimpex booth a French lab owner said he is now processing 800 rolls per day. Demand at his lab exploded in the last months.

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This is good news. I hope it's a real increase in demand and not just a low or lower demand spread over fewer labs as other labs quit operating. This situation could masquerade as an increased in demand to the remaining labs.

Like I said, it's good news if it means a true increase in demand.

alanrockwood said:

This is good news. I hope it's a real increase in demand and not just a low or lower demand spread over fewer labs as other labs quit operating. This situation could masquerade as an increased in demand to the remaining labs.

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That is unlikely, because the phase / trend of labs closing stopped 1-3 years ago (depending on the market / country). And in several countries the number of labs is already increasing again. Often started by young(er) film enthusiasts.
Here some further current positive news in that regard from Canada:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/bus...lm-photography-darkrooms-see-a-bright-future/

Best regards,
Henning

Big lab/vendors closing, small labs/vendors opening, picking up scraps of the market and building.

Berkeley Mike said:

Big lab/vendors closing, small labs/vendors opening, picking up scraps of the market and building.

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Or possibly, small labs/vendors establishing and building new markets.

Berkeley Mike said:

Big lab/vendors closing, ...

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Mike, which big lab or vendor has closed in the US in the last 12 months? None.
The same is valid for the major European markets, Australia and Japan.
The market has changed. I am involved in market research in the photo market. The number of labs and vendors is increasing again.

Best regards,
Henning

I was referring to the 3-year-ago time frame suggested above. Consider this; if it were a real money maker a big box would dive in. Nope. Smaller ma & pas finding niche. Fuji leaving, Kodak and Ilford doing smaller productions and smaller producers going small, too, using remnant machines and nursing them back to utility.

What I'm seeing in the UK is that the last supermarket to offer film processing ceased three years ago (Asda) when they completed a revamp of their stores which took a couple of years nationally. Photo processing centres within Asda stores have now been removed or replaced with self service kiosks for digital prints. A few of the larger stores still have a "photo centre" but they only handle digital prints plus gifts such as mouse mats, mugs etc...and sell a paltry selection of digital cameras.

Boots phased out film processing 2-3 years ago. The last time I used boots was early 2016 and the quality was suspect - indicating low volume and interest on the part of the staff.

But the smaller operators who I speak to are doing fine. They too saw the downturn continue until 2018. So it's not that they are picking up scraps offered by the likes of Boots and Asda....people are returning to film - including a lot of young people using 120 film. At least one Snappy Snaps which was thinking of getting out of film developing has seen a significant upturn and has not only decided to continue with film but has had his mini lab fully serviced as it's making money again.

Berkeley Mike said:

I was referring to the 3-year-ago time frame suggested above. Consider this; if it were a real money maker a big box would dive in. Nope. Smaller ma & pas finding niche. Fuji leaving, Kodak and Ilford doing smaller productions and smaller producers going small, too, using remnant machines and nursing them back to utility.

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Yes, I have to agree with you. The absence of the big box companies speaks volumes.

I would be categorised as a niche mom & pop type minilab that saw an increase in film processing and was able to refurbish our 14 year old film processor. (digital is our main product) So yes we will get a few more years out of film processing and scanning but when I retire in a few years I can't see anyone interested in taking over. I have put out business for sale feelers earlier in the year and the only interest I got from one client (in the trade) was what were the digital figures and why was I bothering with the film side. (Ok I know I am out in the sticks, on the periphery of Europe and it's a local market etc. etc. etc.)

I am delighted there is what appears, an increase in film processing and use. Any good news is always welcome but I would like to see up to date global industry figures and I haven't seen any. With out the figures it's just a guess. Our lab/photoshop was involved in photo market research for GFK but they stopped surveying us 10 years ago. (that should give you a hint).

Google film developing and see what turns up. I did for my country and 6 turned up (including myself) for a population of 4.8 million.

I also did the same with Google keyword planner. Film developing and all the other related words (film processing, 35mm film developing etc, etc) all get a max of 100 average monthly searches. (very low indeed).

Ofcourse all my findings and figures relate to my own local market, which is great but doesn't always reflect the global market.

Dear Mike,

Berkeley Mike said:

I was referring to the 3-year-ago time frame suggested above.

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exactly, 2-3 years ago the trend of (bigger) labs being closed phased out. But lots of big labs stayed in business (e.g. The Darkroom, Richard, Dwaynes, Photo Vision in the US; Cewe, Fuji Eurocolor, Orwonet, allcop, dplab, Photo Studio 13 and some further in Germany). And in the recent past we've seen lots of new, smaller and flexible labs, often started by young(er) film enthusiasts.
The lab situation is changing. I know of lots of labs with increasing demand. A so strong increase that even new machinery had to be installed to satisfy the demand.

And in addition to the article I've posted above:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/the-rise-of-film-photography-1.4757070

Berkeley Mike said:

Fuji leaving,

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No. Absolutely wrong. This "Fujifilm is exiting the film production" statement is spread by people on the internet who have absolutely no knowldege about the photo film industry. Please do yourself and your repution a favour and stop repeating this misinformation / FUD.
The facts:
1. Fujifilm is by far the world's biggest photo film manufacturer with increasing production. Mainly due to Instax instant film production, which has been for quite some time a huge global volume mass market again. Fujifilm is producing more Instax film than the combined (added) photo film production of Fujifilm (non-instant film), Kodak, Ilford, Foma, Agfa (Belgium), Polaroid Originals, InovisCoat, Lucky, Shanghai, Tasma etc..
The instant film market is meanwhile a significantly bigger market compard to standard films. And Fujifilm with the Instax line is dominating this market (more than 96% market share). Fujifilm is producing Instax film in three shifts a day (24h) all days because of the huge and increasing demand.
In their last fiscal year (from 04/17 to 03/18) Fujifilm sold 7.7 million Instax cameras (!!). For comparison: In 2017 only 4.1 million DSLM cameras were sold, and about 7.58 million DSLRs. Fujifilm's next target for their current fiscal year is to sell 10 million Instax cameras (all confirmed last Photokina in September).
2. Fujifilm released also a commitment to standard film (non-instant) at Photokina. It was presented both big on a booth-wall together with a film showcase and large silver-halide prints from their films made on their own papers. And flyers with this statement and the current film programme were available for every booth-visitor (see the attachment, I hope the upload works). Fujifilm Germany told me they have currently backorders for several hundred thousands of film rolls, so demand is significantly surpassing supply currently. They had to significantly increase their forecasts. As Germany is mostly (very) late to trends , it is quite likely that in further markets there is a similar or even stronger trend. All this increasing demand / forecasts is sent to the headquarter. They have to react and modify, increase the production. This clear statement is a first step.
3. Fujifilm has had the best presentation of their silver-halide products at Photokina for years: Instax was of course again huge, standard film was presented the first time since two Photokinas (see above), their silver-halide papers had a very good presentation - including its new "best-of-the-best" Maxima paper with more than 100 years lifespan. A huge focus was generally on printing photos with huge galleries not only on their huge booth, but also in other halls. Even their RA-4 minilab machines were shown on the booth.
So, Fujifilm had indeed the best presentation of traditional silver-halide products of all companies of this sector.
Fujifilm is making much more revenue (more than 1.5 billion) from their silver-halide products than Eastman Kodak, Kodak Alaris, Ilford, Foma, Polaroid Originals, InovisCoat, Bergger, Lucky, Shanghai, Tasma etc. together.
4. Fujifilm has declared to increase their market share in the X-ray film market. This market has increasing demand from some Asian markets, especially China (because of some healthcare reforms).

Berkeley Mike said:

Kodak and Ilford doing smaller productions and smaller producers going small, too, using remnant machines and nursing them back to utility.

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These scaling down processes were done some time ago. Now with increasing demand the manufacturers sometimes even have the problem to keep up with this demand (see above). Kodak Alaris Germany also has big backorders of several hundred thousands of film (demand surpassing supply). The Ilford guys told me they also see increasing demand for their film. Same said Adox, Bergger, ars-imago, Maco and all the distributors I've talked to at Photokina. There has been the best 'mood' at this Photokina among the film companies for more than a decade. There is really something going on in the market. And this "something" is positive .

Best regards,
Henning

foc said:

I am delighted there is what appears, an increase in film processing and use. Any good news is always welcome but I would like to see up to date global industry figures and I haven't seen any.

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If you are interested just send me a pm. I am involved in market research and have data.

Best regards,
Henning

Tell us more about this. Is it an RA-4 paper? Available in cut sheets or just rolls? Where's the PR / info about it?

Henning Serger said:

including its new "best-of-the-best" Maxima paper with more than 100 years lifespan.

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From the picture posted by Henning - only 6 emulsions left, down from 15 since 2010, quite miserable:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/5042362476/
There is simply not enough demand to justify more.