Mini lab seeing increased volume

[Berkeley Mike]

Just shot a roll of SP2 and took it to my usual custom lab in Santa Fe for processing. They told me they don't do C41 and suggested I take it to the mini-lab (!) down town. Took them 10 minutes and charged me $6.50. This is a great way to process 35mm B&W.

Awesome!

 

[filmamigo]

Spoiler Alert for Canadian Photographers using BW film.

A brand new Hostert Dip and Dunk process machine is going to start up in Toronto to process BW Film
I will post more details as they come but all indications that this will be a great process line to Mail in your film.

Great news Bob -- look forward to hearing more.

 

[filmamigo]

I see the upsurge in the BW film directly happening at the Camera Store level where they sell, process and scan and this IMO is where the game is. Try all I want , I cannot interest this market to spend more money for one shot PMK or specialty Jobo process, and I am not interested with the roller transport crowd.
Where I am seeing huge upsurge is in Alternative Hybrid Methods where the ultimate print quality is important to the photographer, and is the area I teach and work.

I must say though I am glad this trend is happening and over time those using the services of others will maybe drift my way to make prints.

I admit it Bob, I'm in that crowd, lined up at the camera store getting machine processed C41 with scans. Black and white I do at home, but I often bring it uncut to the camera store for highspeed scanning (helps to control dust and reduce my spotting.)

I think film photography is aligning with the rest of the "arts and crafts" world. I'm really glad it seems to be settling out into a sustainable model of some kind. No one imagines film photography to ever become a high volume consumer product again. Here is what I see:

• Commercial: gone
• Hobbyist: rebounding to some sustainable normalcy
• Serious fine art: seems ok, but will always be a very small part of the market

New users, students, and dabblers are arriving all the time. I see their young (and old) faces at the camera store counter with me. The risk is most of these folks will try it once and abandon it (the "trend" argument.) But I think this group is more stable than anticipated (they become hobbyists), and this group is self-replenishing (it's the entry point.) Think about all the people who shop at Michael's, Hobby Lobby and Curry's Art Supply. Any individual person may not stick with oil painting as a lifelong pursuit, but collectively they buy enough canvas and oil paint to keep Michael's, Hobby Lobby and Curry's in business. The photography equivalent (as Bob mentioned) is the camera store (at least in Canada.) They can sell you a camera, sell you the film to put in it, show you how to load the film, and the lab upstairs can get you C41 processing and scans by tomorrow (at a "hobbyist-accessible" price that is higher than the mass-market prices from the 1990's.)

The small number of very committed, talented, and tenacious fine artists who choose to work in film need people like Bob. I have only printed a few dozen large prints in my years of photography dabbling, and usually through low-cost methods. Although this conversation has encouraged me to get serious and see what it's like to have really nice prints made, so maybe you will see me soon Bob!

 

[Film-Niko]

Adox did not had new machines made, but got just those written off.

That is wrong in such a general statement. All of the machines they have bought used have got a complete refurbish / overhaul / mostly re-engineering and significant modernizing. With costs quite close to brand new bought machines.
And most of the machinery in the new factory is completely new made up to their specifications, like the converting machines for paper and LF film, the whole new chemistry manufacturing line, and at the new coating line is all new except the coating head (which is from Agfa).

 

[Film-Niko]

No one imagines film photography to ever become a high volume consumer product again.

That may be the case here at photrio, where lots of members are living in their own "doom and gloom bubble" and ignore what is happening outside......
For example instant film photography has been for years a mass market again. And is further growing.
Even surpassing very important digital market segments! Since 2014 yearly sales of instant cameras have surpassed sales of DSLM cameras (mirrorless).
Meanwhile (numbers for 2017) instant camera sales are almost double of DSLM sales!
And looking at the numbers of first half of 2018, it is even possible that in 2018 global sales of instant film cameras will even surpass global sales of DSLR cameras.
90-95% of instant film camera sales are Fujifilm instax cameras. No other camera manufacturer has a camera type which is so successful. They have sold more than 7 million instax cameras in their recent fiscal year.

Do you remenber what the guys with the always negative outlook for film future here at apug / photrio had said about ten years ago? Instant film will be the first film type completely killed by digital............

 

[RattyMouse]

Do you remenber what the guys with the always negative outlook for film future here at apug / photrio had said about ten years ago? Instant film will be the first film type completely killed by digital............

They said pack film would be the first to go, and they were 100% correct.

 

[AgX]

Do you remenber what the guys with the always negative outlook for film future here at apug / photrio had said about ten years ago? Instant film will be the first film type completely killed by digital............

But you forgot to say that those people were in best company as they were with the heads of for instance Impossible who back then gave instant film no chance at all.

 

[Film-Niko]

They said pack film would be the first to go, and they were 100% correct.

Completely wrong. They did not made any differentiation. They talked about instant film in general, and that means especially integral instant film as the dominant instant film type.
And the final word on packfilm is not spoken yet: Florian Kaps, who was successful with the Impossible Project, is now working on new packfilm production. And with the New55 boss on board he already has one in his team with quite a lot of experience in new packfilm production:
http://savepackfilm.supersense.com/

 

[RattyMouse]

Completely wrong. They did not made any differentiation. They talked about instant film in general, and that means especially integral instant film as the dominant instant film type.
And the final word on packfilm is not spoken yet: Florian Kaps, who was successful with the Impossible Project, is now working on new packfilm production. And with the New55 boss on board he already has one in his team with quite a lot of experience in new packfilm production:
http://savepackfilm.supersense.com/

Instax film is shot by toy cameras. No one was talking about that. Pack film is serious film, shot by LF.

 

[Film-Niko]

But you forgot to say that those people were in best company as they were with the heads of for instance Impossible who back then gave instant film no chance at all.

????
Sorry, nonesense. Impossible Project organised several factory visits at the factory in Enschede in the last years for their customers (like me). I used the chance and joined one of these extremely interesting events and talked to the factory staff. In the half year before closing the Enschede factory they made 30 million film packs there! Those who didn't believe in the future of this medium have been the new owners of Polaroid at that time. Those guys who ruined that company. They ignored their own sales figures and instead followed the stupid young stock market analysts (with no experience in that market) with their "film is dead" propaganda.
Fujifilm was more clever: They realised the lowest point in demand for Instax in 2004, and since then an increase. And they stayed in the market.
The high production figures at the Polaroid factory before the wrong closing decision have been one of the major reasons why lots of the factory staff joined the new start with Impossible. They were quite confident that it can be made.
Of course there were lots of difficulties. But the name "Impossible Project" was indeed an extremely clever marketing method. Kudos to Florian Kaps. He knows how to do marketing .

 

[Film-Niko]

Instax film is shot by toy cameras. No one was talking about that. Pack film is serious film, shot by LF.

1. At that time - it was before Polaroid left the market - most instant film was integral film, and it was Polaroid integral film, not instax! Instax was a small niche at that time compared to Polaroid. And lots of serious photographers, including artists and professionals have used integral film for decades. That you don't know that again shows your lack of knowledge about the photography market.
2. Maybe instax is not a serious film for you. But meanwhile it is a serious film for a huge number of photographers. Including professionals: For example lots of them are using it on weddings, giving the couple a complete photo album of all guests with nice personal comments from the guests under their pictures.

 

[pentaxuser]

Can you say what Instax will do for the long term future of Kodak, Ilford, Foma Adox etc whose market is what I'd term the traditional film market. I fear that the example of Instax is not a lot of comfort for the above manufacturers or those of us who use their products. Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

????
Sorry, nonesense. Impossible Project organised several factory visits at the factory in Enschede in the last years for their customers (like me). I used the chance and joined one of these extremely interesting events and talked to the factory staff. In the half year before closing the Enschede factory they made 30 million film packs there! Those who didn't believe in the future of this medium have been the new owners of Polaroid at that time..

You and all these others have been fooled by these people telling you stories about them having been devoted to saving Polaroid film, they were not. You should not believe everything you are told.

 

[RattyMouse]

Can you say what Instax will do for the long term future of Kodak, Ilford, Foma Adox etc whose market is what I'd term the traditional film market. I fear that the example of Instax is not a lot of comfort for the above manufacturers or those of us who use their products. Thanks

pentaxuser

Instax will do nothing for Fujifilm's traditional films, much less Kodak's, Ilford's, Foma's, etc....

Instax is a non factor when it comes to traditional film. It's success (and it is VERY successful) is meaningless to traditional film.

 

[AgX]

Instax works on three sides:

-) it yields "prints". As its main users are young people, its use spreads the idea of having a photograph in hand. And that not neccessarily be instant, it may be a more classic RA-4 print from the industrial lab

-) it shows people that things can work without electronics,

-) it keeps a film plant busy, which of course is benefitial for other films too.

 

[Film-Niko]

Can you say what Instax will do for the long term future of Kodak, Ilford, Foma Adox etc whose market is what I'd term the traditional film market. I fear that the example of Instax is not a lot of comfort for the above manufacturers or those of us who use their products. Thanks

pentaxuser

Instant film in general (both Instax and Polaroid Originals) has positive side effects on what you call 'traditional film market' = non-instant films. Because instant film was the medium which already many years ago started a film revival and new interest in film as a photographic medium (not only Instax is booming, but Polaroid has also two-digit growth rates p.a.). Lots of young photographers, mainly 'digital natives', get in contact with this new for them medium film by instant film photography.
And a certain percentage of them, those with a deeper "love affair" with photography, discover the medium further and also try conventional film.
Lots of the numerous instant film shops worldwide have meanwhile added non-instant film products including standard film cameras in their programme. Just two examples:
"Film never die" shop in Melbourne started some years ago as an instant film shop. And now they are also a very successful, quickly growing film lab, film seller and workshop organiser. Most of their business is now from standard film.
Another current example is Brooklyn Film Camera In NY, a mainly instant film camera shop now extending its programme to standard film and cameras, too.
A big electronic shop chain where I am currently living has added instax film and cameras some time ago to their digital camera programme. And in the last months they have further added Fujifilm single use cameras next to Instax. A product I've never seen at their shops before.
So, instant film plays an important role as a starting point to get young photographers interested in using film. In the end, all film manufacturers and film distributors are benefitting from that in the mid and long term.

From a production point of view: The huge demand for instant film is very important to keep the coating lines at InovisCoat and Fujifilm running. At my factory tour at the Polaroid factory in Enschede it was clearly said and of course obvious and seeable for everyone that there is no emulsion making and coating at this plant. Integral instant film has a negative film base. And that is made by InovisCoat in Germany (former Agfa engineers and machinery). The Jumbo rolls are then shipped to Enschede. That keeps the line in Germany running at an economic reasonable capacity. And therefore it is possible that InovisCoat can coat some niche products for other companies, too. For example Bergger Pancro 400 and Lomography Tourqois films.
Similar at Fujifilm: The even much much bigger instant film production at their film plant in Tokyo keeps the coaling there running at high capacity and so supporting the production of their standard films.

Without the boom in instant film photography the situation for non-instant film would certainly significantly worse. Therefore even if you don't have any interest in using instant film, you should be happy that it is there.

 

[Film-Niko]

You and all these others have been fooled by these people telling you stories about them having been devoted to saving Polaroid film, they were not. You should not believe everything you are told.

The people I've met there have saved Polaroid film with their extremely hard work. I have very much respect for them.
You are permanently telling here for years that their intensions have not been serious, and that they have "fooled" people.
But you have never ever given the smallest evidence for your claims!!
So you either finally really prove your claims with real facts, or you better stop your attacks against them.

Fact is: Polaroid films are available again, they are improving (slowly, but at least they are), there a new cameras for them (just last week another one was announced), the demand for them is strongly growing.

 

[AgX]

Believe in those fairytales and be happy with them.

 

[Film-Niko]

Believe in those fairytales and be happy with them.

And again: Absolutely no evidence from you. As always concerning this topic.
As long as you are not giving real evidence and proof here for your claims that Impossible / Polaroid is fooling people (as you say), you are telling 'fairy tales'.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thank you for your detailed reply to my question. You have given a few examples of shops in which Instax sales have resulted in an expansion of business and have mentioned that Instax has resulted in extra business for Fuji and Inoviscoat. I do not dispute your evidence but remain concerned that this provides enough evidence of a traditional film revival to justify as yet even cautious optimism.

I think the bigger concern for the likes if Ilford is reflected here at Photrio in the last few years, namely that all newcomers are "hybriders". They buy film and scan it. If they produce prints it is done digitally. Ilford in the form of Simon Galley before he sold his share in Ilford hinted quite strongly that Ilford's worry was about its need to sell silver gelatin paper in sufficient quantities to sustain the business and it looks to me, using Photrio as an example of the market, as if this need is not being met

pentaxuser

 

[Cholentpot]

Thank you for your detailed reply to my question. You have given a few examples of shops in which Instax sales have resulted in an expansion of business and have mentioned that Instax has resulted in extra business for Fuji and Inoviscoat. I do not dispute your evidence but remain concerned that this provides enough evidence of a traditional film revival to justify as yet even cautious optimism.

I think the bigger concern for the likes if Ilford is reflected here at Photrio in the last few years, namely that all newcomers are "hybriders". They buy film and scan it. If they produce prints it is done digitally. Ilford in the form of Simon Galley before he sold his share in Ilford hinted quite strongly that Ilford's worry was about its need to sell silver gelatin paper in sufficient quantities to sustain the business and it looks to me, using Photrio as an example of the market, as if this need is not being met

pentaxuser

A large portion of shoot n scanners move on to printing.

I'm one of them.

 

[MattKing]

A large portion of shoot n scanners move on to printing.

I'm one of them.

I'm not sure that the "large percentage" part of this statement is correct.
What I think to be correct is that a large percentage of people who are new to darkroom printing first tried shooting and scanning.

 

[pentaxuser]

A large portion of shoot n scanners move on to printing.

I'm one of them.

You may be one of them but where's the evidence that a large portion of other hybriders are doing what you do?. This may sound confrontational and it is not meant to be but is your evidence anecdotal i.e. others you know have said the same thing about others they know or you personally know of say 10-20 who have made the transition?

If it is this kind of personal or anecdotal evidence then frankly this cannot constitute a "large portion" in a meaningful business sense of the phrase, surely, can it?.

pentaxuser

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Instant film in general (both Instax and Polaroid Originals) has positive side effects on what you call 'traditional film market' = non-instant films. Because instant film was the medium which already many years ago started a film revival and new interest in film as a photographic medium (not only Instax is booming, but Polaroid has also two-digit growth rates p.a.). Lots of young photographers, mainly 'digital natives', get in contact with this new for them medium film by instant film photography.
And a certain percentage of them, those with a deeper "love affair" with photography, discover the medium further and also try conventional film.
Lots of the numerous instant film shops worldwide have meanwhile added non-instant film products including standard film cameras in their programme. Just two examples:
"Film never die" shop in Melbourne started some years ago as an instant film shop. And now they are also a very successful, quickly growing film lab, film seller and workshop organiser. Most of their business is now from standard film.
Another current example is Brooklyn Film Camera In NY, a mainly instant film camera shop now extending its programme to standard film and cameras, too.
A big electronic shop chain where I am currently living has added instax film and cameras some time ago to their digital camera programme. And in the last months they have further added Fujifilm single use cameras next to Instax. A product I've never seen at their shops before.
So, instant film plays an important role as a starting point to get young photographers interested in using film. In the end, all film manufacturers and film distributors are benefitting from that in the mid and long term.

From a production point of view: The huge demand for instant film is very important to keep the coating lines at InovisCoat and Fujifilm running. At my factory tour at the Polaroid factory in Enschede it was clearly said and of course obvious and seeable for everyone that there is no emulsion making and coating at this plant. Integral instant film has a negative film base. And that is made by InovisCoat in Germany (former Agfa engineers and machinery). The Jumbo rolls are then shipped to Enschede. That keeps the line in Germany running at an economic reasonable capacity. And therefore it is possible that InovisCoat can coat some niche products for other companies, too. For example Bergger Pancro 400 and Lomography Tourqois films.
Similar at Fujifilm: The even much much bigger instant film production at their film plant in Tokyo keeps the coaling there running at high capacity and so supporting the production of their standard films.

Without the boom in instant film photography the situation for non-instant film would certainly significantly worse. Therefore even if you don't have any interest in using instant film, you should be happy that it is there.

So...Instant Film is the gateway drug to film.

 

[mshchem]

I'm going on vacation with the wife. Tetons, Jackson Hole etc. I packed a D800, a couple extra lenses.

I gave in to my primal instinct. Added a F5, and a grand old Leica and 10 rolls of Fujichrome. Just can't resist putting on a slide show.

I develop everything my self , E6 will go through Fuji chemistry.