Mini lab seeing increased volume

AgX said:

Why then does this stated increase in use of film does not show up at one of the worlds largest labs (150million prints a month), which has a very averaging effect due to their spread over several countries, and which sees an ongoing decline instead ?

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It may be mostly limited to the US. Our lab is in a small city in the middle of the country, and the first young people who were getting back into film had either been living or going to school on the West and East Coasts. Many of them were associated with the skating/punk subculture or were otherwise hip young people. Now we see broader interest in it among young people and people in their 30's who have a little disposable income. So it may be a cultural phenomenon that's spreading slowly through certain groups and demographics. These demographics are probably the same ones who would tend to avoid large corporate labs in favor of smaller local labs, but some national labs like The Darkroom are undoubtedly doing very well with their film processing.

Poisson Du Jour said:

That must be a small-town mini-lab. In the Big Smoke here in Australia, something like 6,000 rolls a week (35mm, 120 but virtually no LF processing) are going through DnD or roller processors from just 3 labs working 6 days each week.

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Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the US, the metro area the 4th largest market. Over the years I've been told that last big dog is Fuji color, a manger at a Drug Store chain that has a digital lab told me that they send all 35mm to Fuji color, Walmart does as well. Once the film is processed the negatives are scan and emailed back to the local store who prints and creates a low res CD, the film is sold and recycled to reclaim the silver. At this point I doubt that it is Fuji, I cannot find an listing or address for Fuji Color Labs, when I googled a wedding photography business comes up. Who ever is processing the film must do a lot of rolls.

Brady Eklund said:

I was in a room about a month ago with people from about 20 other mini labs with a couple of representatives from Kodak Alaris and Fujifilm. All the labs were seeing an increase in film developing and sales. The guy from Kodak estimated demand for their film had increased around 15% in 2017 and another 20% this year. It was a very interesting discussion. One of the problems is that most of the processing equipment was manufactured in the 90's to early 00's and it's hard to keep the old beasts running. Noritsu had apparently run some numbers exploring the possibility of restarting production of their C41 processors, but determined they would need to sell far more than the market could sustain. It seems like the executives in Japan are having a hard time believing this is anything more than a passing fad, but the guy from Fujifilm was very interested in what we had to say.

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Every lab I used back in the day in Chicago has closed down. If I lived there now, I would not have any idea where to take my film.

RattyMouse said:

Every lab I used back in the day in Chicago has closed down. If I lived there now, I would not have any idea where to take my film.

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Central Camera. In business since 1899.

One of the things this thread highlights is how different the situation is in various parts of the world. Another thing this thread highlights is how various parts of the world have reacted differently to the changes in the world.
I would posit the following:
In the US and Canada, at its height, a huge percentage of film development had migrated to the one hour mini-lab part of the industry. The large, centralized labs were relatively speaking either holding their own or in serious decline, despite the fact that film use was heavy.
It appears that in Europe, at the same time, a greater proportion of the film developing remained with the large labs.
After the precipitous drop in film usage when digital came along, the markets were affected in different ways.
In the US and Canada, a huge proportion of the existing labs went out of business. Availability of service appeared in some cases to have disappeared - at least in the public's perception.
In Europe, where people expected service from large, centralized labs, there was no appearance of disappearance, just reduction.
But...
In the US and Canada, when the remaining labs see an uptick in business or any new labs open, they aren't particularly visible. Whereas people used to expect a lab at every corner (figuratively speaking) the new or healthier existing labs are still small and still need to somehow promote themselves, despite the fact that their relatively small volumes don't provide them with much in the way of resources to do so.
In Europe, the volumes don't support the creation of new, big labs. If any new labs are to open, they need to be small. Their small size permits them to provide customized, more flexible services and therefore gain new customers but, at least to some extent, those customers are likely to have come from the large labs' customer base.
I'm afraid there is still a large amount of upheaval to come. I am hopeful that it will result in a healthy industry, and all sorts of new and flexible technology.

I have a lab which in its hey day we processed and contacted over 100 films a day consistently...We were a two man operation where my partner processed late into evening and I contacted early in the morning to mid day.


Since those days , and with the advancement of digitals, my clients (Commercial working Photographers) dumped film as soon as they could, This left me the Art world that was not able to jump on the digital bandwagon as easily, These days both worlds ( Commercial and Art) use digital cameras. So for my personal business I have ran maybe 20 rolls of film this year.
I see the upsurge in the BW film directly happening at the Camera Store level where they sell, process and scan and this IMO is where the game is. Try all I want , I cannot interest this market to spend more money for one shot PMK or specialty Jobo process, and I am not interested with the roller transport crowd.
Where I am seeing huge upsurge is in Alternative Hybrid Methods where the ultimate print quality is important to the photographer, and is the area I teach and work.

I must say though I am glad this trend is happening and over time those using the services of others will maybe drift my way to make prints.

Mackinaw said:

Central Camera. In business since 1899.

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That's about it, but nowhere near where I used to live. There were a multitude of labs much closer to me, all gone now.

MattKing said:

One of the things this thread highlights is how different the situation is in various parts of the world. Another thing this thread highlights is how various parts of the world have reacted differently to the changes in the world.

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I lived in Shanghai, China for 6 years shooting film. I found one lab. One. In a city of 25 million people, one lab.

When film started to take a dive some people thought that China, South America, India and other 2nd and 3rd world countries would continue to use film. What happened was that in these countries in many ways were first adapters of new digital imaging, they skipped the last generation of analog. I saw a documentary about a guy who set up a photography shop in Bolivia, all he needed was as mid level camera, a couple of lens, a smart phone and an inkjet printer. I imagine that he had to pay a lot for what he did need, don't know what ink and paper cost him, but no film to import, no chemistry, no photo paper, no minilab, does not need to pay a color lat. Must have been a lot cheaper than setting up an analog shop.

Paul Howell said:

When film started to take a dive some people thought that China, South America, India and other 2nd and 3rd world countries would continue to use film. What happened was that in these countries in many ways were first adapters of new digital imaging, they skipped the last generation of analog. I saw a documentary about a guy who set up a photography shop in Bolivia, all he needed was as mid level camera, a couple of lens, a smart phone and an inkjet printer. I imagine that he had to pay a lot for what he did need, don't know what ink and paper cost him, but no film to import, no chemistry, no photo paper, no minilab, does not need to pay a color lat. Must have been a lot cheaper than setting up an analog shop.

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I think the most film users are from Japan and then Europe and the US that is people who have money.

It would be really great of Costco started developing C-41 and E-6 again.

Chan Tran said:

I think the most film users are from Japan and then Europe and the US that is people who have money.

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My experience in Japan is that film use is dropping hard there. 15 years ago when I started going to Japan film stocks in the stores were HUGE. Now they are virtually gone. I had great difficulty getting film my last trip. I had planned on shooting TMAX400 and Ektar film in my Fuji TX-1 camera while in Kyoto. No stock available anywhere I went. I bought the last rolls of AgfaPhoto Vista 200. It's really depressing how hard it is to find film in Japan at times.

I'm actually scanning some of that film now. I finally got 8 rolls developed and so have a lot of scanning to do.

Paul Howell said:

When film started to take a dive some people thought that China, South America, India and other 2nd and 3rd world countries would continue to use film. What happened was that in these countries in many ways were first adapters of new digital imaging, they skipped the last generation of analog. I saw a documentary about a guy who set up a photography shop in Bolivia, all he needed was as mid level camera, a couple of lens, a smart phone and an inkjet printer. I imagine that he had to pay a lot for what he did need, don't know what ink and paper cost him, but no film to import, no chemistry, no photo paper, no minilab, does not need to pay a color lat. Must have been a lot cheaper than setting up an analog shop.

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Film went from being a necessity to a luxury.

Paul Howell said:

When film started to take a dive some people thought that China, South America, India and other 2nd and 3rd world countries would continue to use film. What happened was that in these countries in many ways were first adapters of new digital imaging, they skipped the last generation of analog.

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A similar thing happened with phone. 3rd World countries skipped telephone poles and line and went straight to cell phone. Too bad, as telephone lines teach valuable lessons and the quality of the signal is superior. Those who abandoned phone line are communcating at an inferior level. (sound familiar?)

Here are some figures from one of the biggest labs in Moscow. First graph shows the number of films sold per month, the second - number of films developed.

150 rolls per day is a nice run.

aleckurgan said:

Here are some figures from one of the biggest labs in Moscow.

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Thank you.
But for each figure someone presents, someone else can give a contrary figure. That is the dilemma of these discussions on film sales and processing.

I wonder if someone could run a successful part time business doing film processing in a Phototherm. I'm not talking about making a lot of money, but enough to stay in business for a retired person, maybe a few thousand $ per year.

Depending on your market where you live, if you will do mail order ect. If you plan on a minilab you might need to rent a space, a few of the older analog labs used 110V but most use 120 3 phase, need a water supply, some level drainage that meets the eco code for where you live. Many of the older analog labs you need to code for the film being printed, my guess that the codes have not been updated in 20 years so you need print by trial and error. The newer digital labs read the negative. Need to figure out which labs are still being supported, the Frontier is still listed on Fuji site. Other option, develop with a Jobo system, print by hand with an enlarger. Maybe just a film developer then print by hand?

AgX said:

Thank you.
But for each figure someone presents, someone else can give a contrary figure. That is the dilemma of these discussions on film sales and processing.

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I agree, but it does make the discussion interesting as someone always has a different opinion / fact / figure. Trying to decipher the truth , I think, is part of the fun .

alanrockwood said:

I wonder if someone could run a successful part time business doing film processing in a Phototherm. I'm not talking about making a lot of money, but enough to stay in business for a retired person, maybe a few thousand $ per year.

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The short answer to your question is yes and no !!!!
Joking aside, the yes depends on your commitment to doing it correctly and being able to provide a reliable and quality service. There are lots more involved but I am sure you don't want a monologue for the next hour.

The no would be.......... if you don't have processing experience, then it won't translate into a business. But also don't believe everything you hear.!! Remember the old saying, if you want to ruin a hobby, turn it into a business. (although I disagree with that because it's exactly what I did 30+ years ago).

If you are serious about it let me know and I will give to any advice I can.

Berkeley Mike said:

150 rolls per day is a nice run.

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Yes indeed. Thanks for your calculations.
It's only Moscow not NY, and not all labs in Moscow.

foc said:

I have a mini lab in a small town in the sticks, in a small country on the periphery of Europe. We have had the best six months film processing in the last 5 years.
We have on average a 50% increase in film processing in that time frame...........
Without industry figures to compare, this is all just a nice story. As labs close it will create a bigger pool for those left (hopefully) or this could be the death throes of commercial film developing.
What ever it is, I'm lovin it.

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Hello, greetings to Ireland!
First of all I want to say that I very much appreciate your work and efforts to do your part for the film revival in rural Ireland. Good job!!
Second, concerning your last sentence: I've did a lot of research for myself concerning the global lab situation (it just interested me and I had quite a bit of free time ) and I've got quite interesting, positive and encouraging results: In short: The decline in the number of labs had already stopped about 18-24 months ago (on a global basis). Even better, quite a lot of new labs (including those for E6), film and used film camera shops have opened in the last two years. Mostly founded by younger film enthusiasts and professionals. This trend has been so far stronger in some markets (e.g. North America, UK, Australia, Vietnam) than in others (like Japan, but there are lots of labs, so less need for new ones).
And most of the current labs are reporting increasing business. Here just some examples:
1. "The Darkroom Lab", USA. One of the biggest labs in the US developing several thousands rolls a day. They are reporting increasing business and lots of new, young customers. Have look at this recent interesting video about them:
2. "Richard Photo Lab", USA. Also one of the biggest Photo Labs in the US. Have a look at this recent video:
Some years ago there has been published a video of them by the "Framed Show". Meanwhile they have a much bigger operation and more staff due to increasing demand.
3. Another example from Sydney, Australia: "The Rewind Lab". A quite new lab. One of the founders is our member Stephen Frizza (who is also running additionally his small "Lighthouse Lab"). You can see a small report of them with interviews of Stephen and his partner in this video from the Australien "Pushing Film" youtube channel (from 16:20 onwards). Quote from Stephen (in the middle of the video): "Film resurgence is huge":
4. During my research I was quite impressed how active and enthusiastic the film community is in Australia. Several new labs, film shops and film camera shops have opened there recently. In Melbourne alone I've found about 30 labs! Some of them new like "Ikigai Camera", "Film will never die" and most recently "Work in Process" by Brock Saddler. Here is a recent video about him and his new lab:
Another new film lab and agency in Brisbane, "Racquet Film": https://racquetfilm.com/ https://www.instagram.com/racquetstudio/
5. There are also emerging film communities in several metropol areas in Asia (e.g. Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Kuala Lumpur, HongKong, Manila, Jakarta). In most cases the driving forces are new labs which are very active in promoting film use (via social media; facebook, instagram and youtube are meanwhile by far the most important mediums attracting new, young film shooters; this movement is huge).
Just as one example of this development the "Soup'n Film Lab" in Jakarta: https://www.soupnfilm.com/
https://www.instagram.com/soupnfilm/
They are co-organising the "Walk the Analog" and "Lowlight Bazar" film photography events. Have a look here:
From this community also a film photo youtube channel evolved: GGSG TV: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4jHs8zU_zv2swGhqyXNRhw/videos
6. In Vietnam there is a quite strong increasing film community with several new labs and film-cafes in Hanoi and Saigon. The Vietnam film photo facebook group has already more than 82,000 members and is growing extremely fast with more than 4,500 new members every month. At the end of September this group will be bigger than photrio.
7. Here another example from Lille in France, "L'Atelier Photolix". Also a lab run by young enthusiasts. Most of their film customers are in the 20-30 year old range:
8. The number of film photography youtube channels is signficantly increasing. There are meanwhile so much of them that I've lost track with an overlook of all of them .
And interestingly: More and more of the digital youtubers include film photography topics in their digital focused channels. So even the "digital dieharts" are realising that there is a new interest in film.
And lots of youtubers which have main topics generally outside photography are discovering film for them and reporting about it. Here just an example from a food and travel focussed channel (run by an American couple now based in Berlin) which also have some videos about their new love for film. Have a look here, this video of such a vlog has already more than 765,000 views:
And this one more than 348,000 views:
9. Another examples from the US: New lab (including E6) and film+camera shop in Seattle: https://www.shotonfilmstore.com/
https://www.instagram.com/shotonfilmstore/
And new from New Jersey: https://www.medfordfilmlab.com/
And new from Florida: https://www.lagovistafilmlab.com/
Another new one from Florida: https://www.coastalfilmlab.com/
10. New labs in Africa? Yes, even there. One example for a new lab in Cairo: http://thedarkroomcairo.com/
11. New used film camera and repair shop (both online and brick and mortar, Berlin) in Germany: http://clickundsurr.de/
12: New film lab (C41, E6, BW), big camera repair shop (including repair experts for electronic cameras) and used camera online shop in Finland: Camera Rescue Center:
That are only some examples. There are a lot more new labs, film and film camera / repair shops out there worldwide. Everytime when I dive into a new research phase I find more new ones. Facebook, youtube and instagram are the driving forces for rising new interest in film. Countless activities there on these platforms. E.g. the hashtag #filmphotography has more than 10,769,840 pictures on instagram.

Film-Niko, you yourself stated that the situation looks non-homogeneous.

Another problem we have is that we only have indirect figures concerning film use. A growing number of smaller labs can easily be explained by taking over the tiny resting commerce of the big ones closing. The most important figures though are those of film sales of the industry, These are veiled in several ways. The published indirect figures show a decline.
The same time we have seen much more films being cancelled by the industry than new to emerge. Of course one can see the introduction of new, rebranded films as reaction on a growing market...

We got as active member Mirko, founder and CEO of Fotoimpex/Adox and his reports on the market situation are far less enthusiastic than those of many other members here. That should make one think.
But maybe that is just our german character trait...

What we are seeing is a stabilizing of the film users and a coalescing of the market driven to fewer labs, new or old. What has not changed is the enthusiasm and devotion of users to the film medium. Even I have that.

Our college cancelled Basic Film this summer due to only 8 enrolled. The one summer digital class had 36.1 of 3 sections have been closed this Fall due, again, to low enrollment. They total 26(which will end up finishing at about 18-20) while my 2 Intro to digital classes total 59 (finishing at about 48). We have faculty in the department (former lab owner, an MFA w/o commercial or digital skills, and an old army photographer who only knows film) who have stubbornly resisted any interpretation that film has a much reduced role both in commerce and art.

One of them just took the Chair and has agreed, as the data cannot be denied, that we will have only 1 section of Basic Film per semester. Going forward we will still have a darkroom, its wet and dry sides, and 10 film-loading-processing and drying rooms, using 1000 sq ft in a 3000 sq ft department. At some point down the road, questions will be asked about 15-20 students using 1/3 of the total space, while the other 200-275 share the rest.

I am not dissing film, I'm just trying to keep the narrative accurate.

Film-Niko said:

9. Another examples from the US: New lab (including E6) and film+camera shop in Seattle: https://www.shotonfilmstore.com/
https://www.instagram.com/shotonfilmstore/

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I'm intrigued by this place as its on a route I use from time to time.
It appears to have opened up in a location that was formerly operated by a Tatoo parlour. Now that's a trend I would support!