Milky Residue on Film

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sanking

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I developed some LF film this past evening, FP4+ and Efke 100. The developer was fresh and had been used before with no problem, the stop bath was also fresh, and the fixer was assumed to be fresh and tests fine.

Coming out of the fixer I could see a kind of milky blue residue on the emulsion side of the film, almost as if the film did not clear completely. It can be wiped off, but will not come off in the wash. I experienced this once or twice in the past but have no clue as to the cause. Is is a fixer problem, even though the fixer was mixed just a few days ago and should be ok?

Sandy King
 

fatboy22

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Try refixing negatives with fresh fixer, milky blue should go away. It really sounds like exhausted fixer.

Jamie
 
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sanking

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Try refixing negatives with fresh fixer, milky blue should go away. It really sounds like exhausted fixer.

Jamie


Yes, exhausted fixer was the problem. I mixed up a new batch and re-fixed the films and they all cleared. But I am coinfused why the other batch went bad so quickly, and it still tests fine with hypo check.

Sandy
 
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sanking

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What fixer formula was it?
juan


It was Formulary TF-4, and I just mixed up a gallon of it from stock last week. I used it immediately to fix eight sheets of 12X20 film and there was no problem at all. I would have assumed that a gallon of fixer should not exhaust after only eight sheets of 12X20 film? I must have made a mistake somewhere but sure can not figure out what. And the fixer still checks fine with Edwal hypo-check?

Anyway, I mixed up a new solution today of TF-3 and the film cleared right up.

Sandy
 
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Ryuji

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Sandy, your problem sounds like a variation of dichroic fog. Did you use some funky film developer or a film-developer combination that may give rise to it? Did you stop the film adequately?
 
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sanking

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Sandy, your problem sounds like a variation of dichroic fog. Did you use some funky film developer or a film-developer combination that may give rise to it? Did you stop the film adequately?



Ryuji,

I used Pyrocat-MC, but this has never caused a similar problem in the past. The stop was a full strength acetic acid bath as per Kodak directions. The problem definitely appears to be the fixer because a fresh batch of fixer cleared the film.

Exactly what is dichroic fog? Does it also cause a residue on the film that can be wiped away? I recall having a similar problem a few years ago when I was using a water stop bath. Since I switched to an acid stop bath I had not seen the problem again until last evening.

Sandy
 
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Could your first use have contaminated the fixer somehow, so that the hypo level is still OK, hence the OK Edwal test, but still didn't clear the film somehow?
I'm not very technically inclined with this, but I use TF-4 as well and have always had it last for a very long time.

- Thomas
 

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Sandy, Did you say TF-4 fixer with an acid stop bath? I think you found your problem. You probably changed the alkaline ph of the TF-4 with carry over from your acid stop bath. This would explain why it tested fine. Plain water is all you can really use with TF-4 as a stop, but I am sure you already knew this and it just slipped your mind.

Patrick
 
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sanking

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Sandy, Did you say TF-4 fixer with an acid stop bath? I think you found your problem. You probably changed the alkaline ph of the TF-4 with carry over from your acid stop bath. This would explain why it tested fine. Plain water is all you can really use with TF-4 as a stop, but I am sure you already knew this and it just slipped your mind.

Patrick

Patrick,

No, I was not aware that an acid stop bath would interfere with the working properties of the TF-F fixer. I have in fact been using a mild acid stop bath for many years with both TF-4 and TF-3 and never saw this particular problem.

This time I was using a full strengh acid stop bath, so maybe you are on to something. Is it the experience of others that an acid stop bath interferes with the fixing properties of TF-4? If that is indeed the case I will start using an acid fixing bath since, contrary to popular opinion, a mild acid fixer cuts stain very little, if any, with Pyrocat negatives.

Sandy
 

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Patrick,

If that is indeed the case I will start using an acid fixing bath since, contrary to popular opinion, a mild acid fixer cuts stain very little, if any, with Pyrocat negatives.

Sandy

Hi Sandy,
is the same true of PMK pyro? I use PMK with a water stop and TF-4 fixer. When I need to do N-2 processing, I will use a very weak stop bath - about 1/8'th strength kodak indicator stop for a few seconds followed by a 30sec - 1min water stop and then fix.

Thanks,

Dan
 
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Amund

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Hi Sandy,
is the same true of PMK pyro? I use PMK with a water stop and TF-4 fixer. When I need to do N-2 processing, I will use a very weak stop bath - about 1/8'th strength kodak fixer for a few seconds followed by a 30sec - 1min water stop and then fix.

Thanks,

Dan


I use Ilford Hypam with PMK negs, no problems at all.
 

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Sandy, I am not an expert on chemistry, but I do know that TF-4 fixer is alkaline, therefore the use of an acid stop bath will ruin it. I have never had any problems with using PMK or Pyrocat without a stop bath. The dilutions are low enough that a couple of rinses of water should suffice. You are probably best off eliminating the acid stop, even a weak one. I know there is a formula for an alkaline stop bath but I don't know what it is called and have never had a reason to need it. I am sure a search will turn it up if you feel you need to arrest development that fast.

Sandy, I am glad that I was able to help you for a change! :smile:

Regards,

Patrick
 
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sanking

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Not sure I have gotten to the bottom of this. On inspection of the film after putting them through a second fixer, definitely fresh, there were still some type of residue on the film. I placed all of them in water and soaked for about 20 minutes, then carefully wiped the residue off with a sponge. Got all of it, with absolutely no scratches. Amazing how hard tanning and hardening developers leave the gelatin emulsion of film.

But other than some kind of strange reaction in change from base to acidic state, and back. I don't have a clue what happened. But for sure I am going back to a water stop bath on my next batch of 12X20 negatives.

Sandy
 
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sanking

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Hi Sandy,
is the same true of PMK pyro? I use PMK with a water stop and TF-4 fixer. When I need to do N-2 processing, I will use a very weak stop bath - about 1/8'th strength kodak indicator stop for a few seconds followed by a 30sec - 1min water stop and then fix.

Thanks,

Dan

A weak acid stop bath will not reduce stain intensity very much with PMK, at least in my experience. I did a lot of tests with this many years ago and found that the reduction in stain intensity with an acid stop bath was relatively small with most films.

I am not saying that there will be *no* reduction in the intensity of the stain, only that the amount is not great enought to be of any practical consequence.

Sandy
 
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Alkali stop bath

Sandy,
Sounds to me like you need an alkali stop bath. I'm sure there must be a supplier in the US but if not try Peter Hogan at www.monochromephotography.com , as he definitely produces the required product and may even be able to give you some guidance.

Good Luck :smile:
N
 

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Sandy,
Sounds to me like you need an alkali stop bath. I'm sure there must be a supplier in the US but if not try Peter Hogan at www.monochromephotography.com , as he definitely produces the required product and may even be able to give you some guidance.

Good Luck :smile:
N

Although I had never heard of alkaline stop baths -- the very idea seems oxymoronic -- I assume that these are the sort of buffer baths used for interrupted development of. e.g. aerial cine film and litho films.

One was the subject of US patent 3,284,199 (Vere Maffet and Earl Delzon). The bath was 6.80g potassium dihydrogen phosphate in 900 ml water; pH adjusted to 7.20 with sodium hydroxide; solution made up to 1000 ml. Another substitutes 80g of boric acid for the potassium dihydrogen phosphate but otherwise is made up identically.

The 'all alkaline' route has merit with staining developers such as Sandy's approach, though as he says, density loss with weakly acid baths is rarely significant, but I'd be suspicious of Peter Hogan's assertions that all-alkaline processing is invariably superior and that acid stop baths are merely a matter of convenience. As every authority on the subject, and every manufacturer, describes and produces acid stop baths, and as immense amounts of research have been done both by major companies and by enthusiasts on this, I can't help feeling that if alkaline stop baths and fixers were actually superior, that's what they'd sell.

As I say, the rules with some staining developers -- maybe all, I don't know -- are different but I thought the above formulae (from Haist, as ever) might be of interest.

Cheers,

R.
 

Ryuji

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Exactly what is dichroic fog? Does it also cause a residue on the film that can be wiped away? I recall having a similar problem a few years ago when I was using a water stop bath. Since I switched to an acid stop bath I had not seen the problem again until last evening.

Dichroic fog is a rather descriptive of how it looks to naked eyes. When you have it on your film, the film looks kinda like hologram---the color changes depending on the angle you look at. It is a collection of very fine silver particles. Depending on how it is formed, it may be in thin film very near or at the film surface, or it could be very near developing grains, or anything between. It is sometimes called silver stain as well. Dichroic fog can be uniform or nonuniform but it is not very imagewise fog.

Some good developers are designed to minimize the risk of this fog, but other developers can cause it easily. One example is a combination of a rather solvent developer and a heavily exposed document film. Some commercial film developers contain antistaining agent to prevent dichroic fog.
When the film still contains active developer and the film sees fixer, this fog can happen (no guarantee you get it, though). Dichroic fog or similar kind of silver stain can be particularly problematic with roller transport processing machines, and developers for these machines almost always contain an antistaining agent, though different kind from those commonly used in film developers.

Dichroic fog is easily removed by VERY dilute, gentle bleach. An alternative is ammonium thiosulfate fixer that is highly acidified with citric acid. You can find more info on this in alt-photo archive or possibly on my website.

Another possibility is mineral deposit. If you have a solution of EDTA (pH around 6 would be good) try to see if it clears the stain. If it does, the problem is more likely calcium or magnesium from the water supply.
 

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This time I was using a full strengh acid stop bath, so maybe you are on to something. Is it the experience of others that an acid stop bath interferes with the fixing properties of TF-4? If that is indeed the case I will start using an acid fixing bath since, contrary to popular opinion, a mild acid fixer cuts stain very little, if any, with Pyrocat negatives.

If you find it problematic, try Clearfix. The pH of Clearfix is same as TF-4 but it's buffered in a different way, so that it can be perfectly compatible with both acid stop and water rinse techniques. I personally use this fix with both these ways, depending on the processing setup I use.
 

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Although I had never heard of alkaline stop baths -- the very idea seems oxymoronic -- I assume that these are the sort of buffer baths used for interrupted development of. e.g. aerial cine film and litho films.
I also don't see a reason why alkaline stop bath is necessary, or preferred, with pictorial continuous tone processing of modern emulsions. The story may be different with classic lith development as well as other high contrast applications where development time must be very tightly controlled, or individually determined by inspection, etc. But with the sort of processing we do here, a fraction of a degree of temperature error can cause bigger error than slow stop using water rinse or acid stop bath.

Although Troop said a lot of good things about all alkaline processing in his book, I see no reason to do so with modern materials.

The 'all alkaline' route has merit with staining developers such as Sandy's approach, though as he says, density loss with weakly acid baths is rarely significant, but I'd be suspicious of Peter Hogan's assertions that all-alkaline processing is invariably superior and that acid stop baths are merely a matter of convenience. As every authority on the subject, and every manufacturer, describes and produces acid stop baths, and as immense amounts of research have been done both by major companies and by enthusiasts on this, I can't help feeling that if alkaline stop baths and fixers were actually superior, that's what they'd sell.

I agree with your first sentence. There are all sorts of wild claims made in the description of alkaline stop bath and alkaline fixer. Frankly, if there were a way to make some of those claims to be scientifically truthful, I would definitely do that. In reality, I've been making my emulsions and processing chemicals for several years now, with continuous effort to update the scientific knowledge and practical formulation, but I must say some authors and marketers are writing hopes and hypes not so much of truth.

About the second sentence, I currently do not license any acid stop or acid fixer formula, although I have them in my private formula book. Although I see some advantages with my alkaline fix, the real reason is that there are already enough acid stop baths and acid fixers cheaply available on the market. Regarding what sells, I think if one has a bit of intact brain and wants to make money, photographic chemical is a wrong place. That said, if you want to make money by selling fixers, I think the best way is to make generic acid fixers (perhaps in a few different colors, scents and flavors) and sell them at a buck cheaper than competitors. (Sad reality, though.)

As I say, the rules with some staining developers -- maybe all, I don't know -- are different but I thought the above formulae (from Haist, as ever) might be of interest.

Which formula is from Haist? I thought those from US Pat 3284199, Maffet and Peters, 1963, assigned to Du Pont de Nemours, not Haist... or am I missing something here?
 

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Regarding what sells, I think if one has a bit of intact brain and wants to make money, photographic chemical is a wrong place.

Which formula is from Haist? I thought those from US Pat 3284199, Maffet and Peters, 1963, assigned to Du Pont de Nemours, not Haist... or am I missing something here?

Formulae lifted from Haist's pages as I don't have the patent.

Selling chemicals: true now, maybe, but a good few companies made quite a lot of money doing it -- and none of them ever sold alkaline fixers for general B+W use.

Cheers,

R.
 

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Roger, it doesn't seem as if you are up on the thousands of discussions (not to mention a little literature) that have appeared on the subject of alkaline fixing over the last ten or twenty years. The major benefit is drastically shorter washing: about half the time for prints, and substantially less for negatives. There is some abbreviated information in the Film Developing Cookbook. Prior references in the literature (such as Haist) were inferential and needed some hand-holding by the author to decode.

Ryuji, you say the buffer system in Clearfix is superior to TF-4, but do you have any figures to back that up? I'm sure we'd all love to see them.

We'd also love to know more about the secret formulas for acid fixers in your private formula book. I had no idea anything interesting was going on in that area after Russell and Alnutt.

Sandy, did you mention what kind of film you were using?
 

Photo Engineer

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I use TF-4 with Kodak indicator stop bath for both film and paper. I have never seen any problem. I use Dektol for paper, D76 or HC110 for film for the most part, or my own custom mixed developers.

Although I have never seen the formula for TF-4, I have seen the TF-3 formula in A&T and have discussed it with Bill Troop.

IMHO, TF-4 is buffered well enough to work with either a water wash or a stop bath. My general practice with this seems to bear this out. I wish Sandy could run a clearing test on the fix itself right now to see if it works and compare it with another known good batch. We might find that this problem is due to something else entirely. Or, perhaps he could repeat the process as a test and see if it recurs.

Much of our work at EK on fixes and blixes used borate buffers with no deleterious effects at any pH. It should be remembered that boric acid and calcium borate are less soluable than sodium borate, but they do not interfere with fixing in a hypo solution. Either will appear as a whitish deposit if the water is very hard or very acidic. Both will wash out given enough time. I have never seen either form though from use of TF-4 at the proper dilution for film or paper.

PE
 
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sanking

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Sandy, did you mention what kind of film you were using?


Bill,

Yes, I experienced the milky residue with two different films, Ilford FP4+ and Efke PL100. The only thing I am aware of that I did in this case that is slightly different from my normal processing routine is the use of full strength acetic acid rinse instead of a very dilute one.

I have seen dichroic fog in the past and generally associate it with a kind of rainbow effect. The milky residue I saw in this case was different in that it was merely bluish, not rainbow like, and seemed to be rather thick.


Sandy
 

Ryuji

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Formulae lifted from Haist's pages as I don't have the patent.
Oh I see. I just revised the stop bath section on my web site and included a link to this patent in PDF form.

Dead Link Removed

Selling chemicals: true now, maybe, but a good few companies made quite a lot of money doing it -- and none of them ever sold alkaline fixers for general B+W use.
Like I said with a bit of cynicism, it's hard to convince people who initially learned how to do darkroom work with acid hardening fix. If Kodak or Ilford sold an alkaline fix, it would be an instant disaster in the customer support department and they will need a lot more phone lines and email operators. It's actually smart they didn't. I totally understand the advantage of alkaline fix but I still say that.
 
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