Microfilm as pictorial film? Especially 105mm.

[rbarber]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I have read a lot of threads here over the years.

I just shot my first roll of Adox CMS 20, and I was pleased with the results. The shadows blocked up, but there was a lot of detail in the photos--much finer detail and much smaller grain (no grain?) than I've seen with other 35mm films. I have a plan to expose and develop the film differently next time to get detail in the shadows. It doesn't help that I shot a high-contrast scene on a sunny day.

Anyway, I really liked the Adox CMS 20 and afterwards read that it is microfilm. So I looked into other types of microfilm stocks and got a little confused. There were several different types and processes. None of these films had sprockets in the 35mm size; they aren't meant to be used in normal 35mm film cameras. I think that the Adox CMS 20 type of film is a silver halide film that is "direct" in order to give a normal negative. Do I have that right? Is that what I would want to buy to try another type of microfilm?

Also, I noticed that some of the microfilm stocks are 105mm wide. Has anybody ever cut such a film down and used it in a 4x5 camera?

Thanks for your help.

Bob

 

[JSebrof]

Just out of curiosity, what did you use to develop the roll?

 

[paul ewins]

We used to use 105mm Micrographic films for making microfiche masters. It was processed in regular Ilford chemistry but is almost certainly very high contrast, like Lith film. Unless you were given rolls of it for free there wouldn't be much point in using it, given the inevitable hassles of trimming it and then experimenting with the chemistry to get continuous tone.

 

[rbarber]

Hi, I used Stoeckler two-bath developer. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/twobath/

I developed using the time in the table for normal contrast. I had used the A bath already for a bunch of films, so I figured that it was a little weak which is what I wanted. Next time I am going to use fresh A bath and develop for N-1 or N-2, which is supposed to open up the shadows.

I got results like this picture. This is a scan from my Epson 3200. I rated the film at ISO 20 and shot it handheld. I would have gotten better results with a tripod. As it was, I couldn't stop down for depth of field and I was getting like 1/60 second shutter speed at f3.5. It was just a test roll to get the feel of things.

But man, would I like to find something like this film to put in my Mamiya TLR, or my 4x5.

 

[ic-racer]

Even continuous tone conventional panchromatic film can be difficult to obtain. Where are you getting that film?

I have about 200 feet of 35mm microfilm (unmarked container) I have been using in the last few years. I rotary process it in T-max developer at 16C for 4.5 min or in dilute 1:100 Rodinal at 24C. I rate it around 6 to 24. I was able to get a pretty good range of tones out of the film by giving lots of exposure and little development. (35mm film with 18mm Carl Zeiss lens)

 

[rbarber]

Well, this film is just Adox CMS 20, which you can get from Freestyle.

I know very little about film emulsions, but I read online that Adox CMS 20 is a type of microfilm.

So I looked for other microfilm suppliers online, and found places like this:
http://www.worldmicrographics.com/Microfilm.html

I noticed that some of the microfilms offered are 105mm wide, which presumably could be cut to fit a 4x5 film holder. But which films are like the Adox CMS 20? They are pretty expensive for an experiment, and I don't know the difference between the emulsions.

Here's another picture I took, of our frozen river. Both of the pictures that I posted are unsharpened out of the scanner. What I find is that I can sharpen the heck out of them, without seeing any film grain. With other films, my sharpening is limited by the grain. With this film, I can sharpen until the edge effects get annoying.

 

[rbarber]

We used to use 105mm Micrographic films for making microfiche masters. It was processed in regular Ilford chemistry but is almost certainly very high contrast, like Lith film. Unless you were given rolls of it for free there wouldn't be much point in using it, given the inevitable hassles of trimming it and then experimenting with the chemistry to get continuous tone.

All right, so there goes my brilliant idea. Do you have any idea of what the emulsion was that you used? It seems that there is silver halide positive and reversal, and also vesicular, and also something else. I can't make any sense of it.

 

[brian d]

I noticed that some of the microfilms offered are 105mm wide, which presumably could be cut to fit a 4x5 film holder. But which films are like the Adox CMS 20? They are pretty expensive for an experiment, and I don't know the difference between the emulsions.

That also might open up the possibility of slitting and respooling for use in old 116/616 camera's , maybe 122 etc? Don't know how wide 122 is.
Would be a lot of hassle making up the backing paper and all, but it still might be worthwhile for someone who really enjoys using the old timers...

 

[piu58]

Well, this film is just Adox CMS 20, which you can get from Freestyle.

I know very little about film emulsions, but I read online that Adox CMS 20 is a type of microfilm.

ADXO CMS 20 ist identical SPUR Orthopan UR. It is in reality Agfa High Definition Pan, a document film for black-white reproductions (no grey tones). It is very hard to get subtle shadings of grey from that film. I got satisfactory results with SPUR developer.But even with that dev the film tends to blocked highlights. Over-developing gives disastrous results.

 

[olehjalmar]

Hi, I used Stoeckler two-bath developer. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/twobath/

I developed using the time in the table for normal contrast. I had used the A bath already for a bunch of films, so I figured that it was a little weak which is what I wanted. Next time I am going to use fresh A bath and develop for N-1 or N-2, which is supposed to open up the shadows.

I got results like this picture. This is a scan from my Epson 3200. I rated the film at ISO 20 and shot it handheld. I would have gotten better results with a tripod. As it was, I couldn't stop down for depth of field and I was getting like 1/60 second shutter speed at f3.5. It was just a test roll to get the feel of things.

But man, would I like to find something like this film to put in my Mamiya TLR, or my 4x5.

Reducing the amount of sodium sulfite in the first bath to 50 grams/liter or so will also reduce the contrast, because less development will take place in the first bath. You should also get slightly higher acutance.

For the Mamiya TLR, I would suggest trying out the new Rollei ATP 1.1, i think it is available in 120. I haven't tried it myself, but it seems to be a bit less tricky than the CMS20.

 

[olehjalmar]

ADXO CMS 20 ist identical SPUR Orthopan UR. It is in reality Agfa High Definition Pan, a document film for black-white reproductions (no grey tones). It is very hard to get subtle shadings of grey from that film. I got satisfactory results with SPUR developer.But even with that dev the film tends to blocked highlights. Over-developing gives disastrous results.

My main problem with the film is lack of detail in the shadows, the highlights come out just fine. I expose it as ASA 25, and looks like this is really pushing it a bit. it But I agree that over-developing it is a disaster.