Microdol X Homebrew Question

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Photo Engineer

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Lachlan, I have no idea. A replenisher formula is a very complex equation that tries to account for silver level coated and halide level. It must thus work with a lot of films. Such a math formula might be publishes somewhere, but I don't have one.

Sorry.

PE
 

darkroommike

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After the real deal Microdol-X replenisher was discontinued Kodak suggested a substitute in J-4027 of 2003. Take a one gallon bag of Microdol-X developer and dissolve it in about 2 qts. hot water (90-100 degrees F.)add 24 grams of Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate and dilute the whole thing to three quarts.
 

Lachlan Young

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Lachlan, I have no idea. A replenisher formula is a very complex equation that tries to account for silver level coated and halide level. It must thus work with a lot of films. Such a math formula might be publishes somewhere, but I don't have one.

Sorry.

PE

No problem, I guess I'll have a dig around in the literature next time I get bored to see if anything turns up.
 

Fujicaman1957

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Such agents are now used in emulsion making. That is why modern emulsions are much more resistant to dichroic fog.

The formula I posted above was straight from Dick. That is all I can say. It was about 50 years ago after all. He may have said something like this: Here is the formula (which I wrote down) and then he might have added - of course, you know there is some Sodium Chloride in there. Everyone knows that.

Of course I don't remember. I remember him saying that ultra high Sulfite levels along with the 4 chloro-resorcinol was used.

PE[/QUOTE

So, if I'm understanding you right, PE, since the agents for fighting dichroic fog are now a part of the film emulsion, wouldn't the non-X version of Microdol work with modern films?
 

Rudeofus

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So, if I'm understanding you right, PE, since the agents for fighting dichroic fog are now a part of the film emulsion, wouldn't the non-X version of Microdol work with modern films?

That's what everybody has been saying for many years now, including Anchell&Troop's FDC. There is a lot of bas stuff you have to do to a developer in order to trigger dichroic fog these days, especially with modern film stock. This obsession with "The Real Microdol-X Formula" had no foundation in reality, and least during the last two or three decades. Now, that PE has given up the ingredient list, "The Big Disappointment" goes around. Go figure....
 
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I for one am far from "Disappointed" but rather excited that a long held mystery (for those of us around long enough to acquire "mysteries") has been revealed.
As for the Sodium Sulfite amount would it not be prudent to examine a Kodak branded bag of Microdol-X and note the listed weight? Perhaps we may extrapolate from there....
 

Anon Ymous

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... As for the Sodium Sulfite amount would it not be prudent to examine a Kodak branded bag of Microdol-X and note the listed weight? Perhaps we may extrapolate from there....
Consider the 1l packs and tins and you'll notice that the net weight isn't always the same. I've seen 132 and 135g. Now, consider the 1US gal packs and divide their net weight (482g) by 3,8. This gives you ~127g. That's enough of a headache. It seems that the Microdol-X formula wasn't always the same. Some tweaks have probably been made, maybe because a chelating agent was substituted with another. But in any case, the substitute formula lists 100g sulfite, 5g Metol and 30g sodium chloride, for a total of 135g. Not too far away eh?
 

Fujicaman1957

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So, if we've making up our developer with distilled water like you're supposed to, all you need is Metol, sodium sulfite, and salt.... The sodium citrate is only there to keep the calcium in hard water from becoming a problem, so if you use distilled water, you don't need it.

Well, crap !

I wonder how many man hours have been wasted by people trying to figure out the formula for Microdol-X when the adding of the anti-dichroic fog agent to the film's emulsion solved the dichroic fog problem sometime back and nobody knew about it.
 

John Wiegerink

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So, if we've making up our developer with distilled water like you're supposed to, all you need is Metol, sodium sulfite, and salt.... The sodium citrate is only there to keep the calcium in hard water from becoming a problem, so if you use distilled water, you don't need it.

Well, crap !

I wonder how many man hours have been wasted by people trying to figure out the formula for Microdol-X when the adding of the anti-dichroic fog agent to the film's emulsion solved the dichroic fog problem sometime back and nobody knew about it.
While it is true that metol, SS and good old pickling salt will do the trick just as well, my interest was in what made Microdol-X impart a brownish tone to my negatives. I've wasted more time on a bar stool and got nothing in return but a headache and an empty wallet. This waste of time really cost me nothing. JohnW
 

Rudeofus

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Is there sound evidence, that a fresh batch of Microdol-X would create negatives with brown tone, and Metol/SS/NaCl homebrew version would not? Both used with the same film? There are some possible explanations about what the purpose of 4-Chlororesorcinol and Sodium Citrate might do, but brown image tone is quite unlikely result of these two compounds.
 

Anon Ymous

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Is there sound evidence, that a fresh batch of Microdol-X would create negatives with brown tone, and Metol/SS/NaCl homebrew version would not?
I don't think so. I have used the homebrew version with several films and TMax 100 in particular got a brownish tone, especially noticeable in mid to high densities. The exposed leader has a definite brown tone, so much so that seeing this alone could fool someone in believing that it was developed in something like Pyrocat. I also have a suspicion that this brown tone is lessened with overdevelopment, something that would make sense IMHO.
 

Rudeofus

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This doesn't surprise me much, since all these endless threads about Microdol, Microdol-X and their demise never ever once mentioned that Microdol-X would yield substantially different negatives except for dichroic fog - or lack thereof.
 

Gerald C Koch

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The brown tone is a result of the grain size. I have experienced the same with an ascorbate developer so it s not a result of a particular chemical.
 

Pixophrenic

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The brown tone is a result of the grain size. I have experienced the same with an ascorbate developer so it s not a result of a particular chemical.

Since Gerald submitted his Microdol-like version to the resource section, I have been thinking of trying it. Today I finally tried it on a few clips of Kentmere 100, using stock at 20 degrees. At 13 minutes, the +1 shot achieved usable density but the 16 minute clip was more adequate, even though I think it could go to 18-19 minutes without overdevelopment. Agitation was two complete spiral turns every minute. The film was treated to a citro stop and Ilford acid fixer. The image is very slightly brownish, very low fog, and the grain is relatively small, compared to the other developers I have tried so far. However, it does not come out as amazingly small. In that regard, I have a question.
In the RICHARD W. HENN and JOHN I. CRABTREE. US Patent 2,466,423 (mentioned a few years before in this thread) there is the following text:
"Our developer comprises three essential ingredients, (1) a developing agent, (2) a soluble amine other than the developing agent, (3) a soluble chloride or compound which yields chloride ions
in concentration in excess of the molar concentration of the amine. This may be achieved by (d) a relatively high concentration of a soluble chloride such as an alkali metal chloride or (b) the use of an amine hydrochloride plus a smaller concentration of the soluble chloride.".
All example developers they list contain of developing agents only metol, but otherwise they are not at all "heavily salted D-23". They always contain one or the other amine, such as ethylene diamine, and often a buffer like metaborate. Have I missed something in this relatively voluminous thread?
 

Rudeofus

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If you look at the claims of this patent, only two developer formulas are actually claimed as invention, and these two formulas are nothing like Microdol or Microdol-X.
 

Pixophrenic

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If you look at the claims of this patent, only two developer formulas are actually claimed as invention, and these two formulas are nothing like Microdol or Microdol-X.

Well. I beg to differ. The formulas in the patent are all claimed to give reduction of grain. Most are basically D-23 with alkali metal chloride salt added AND a primary amine. One really new component there is a primary amine and it is an essential component. The authors come to that in the introduction saying that previous approaches using para-phenylendiamine or ammonium salts have one or the other fault. Curiously, among many amines they try to cover are primary aromatic amines such as meta-phenylenediamine and 2,4,6-triamino-toluene, which are known to have low developing activity, but closely related para-phenylenediamine and ortho-phenylendiamine are BOTH developing agents and halide solvents, giving fine grain developers. Kodak T-max developer, as some other current developers, contains diethanolamine, a substance of the group above. Also, derivatized PPD like CD-2/3/4 give fine grain developers in the near absence of sulfite.

On a related note, I recently came across a book of Stereoscopic Photography by A.W.Judge, which lists an old para-phenylenediamine based developer and notes that the peculiar property of it was that it gave the same grain, regardless of emulsion, wherein naturally fine-grained emulsions developed to a coarser grain and coarser grain ones got more fine-grained. Conversely, the eventual demise of Microdol may then have had something to do with the fact that it is only useful with a limited few current emulsions.
 

Rudeofus

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You have to differentiate between the patent body and the list of claims. A patent can state all kinds of stuff, but the only thing really protected by that patent is the list of claims, and in this case this covers these two developer formulas at the end. Microdol was never covered by this patent, but the patent itself (which counts as publication on its own) may have excluded other people from later patenting crucial aspects of Microdol (e.g. the NaCl). It could have been just a defensive patent, or maybe Henn&Crabtree really thought of commercializing the two claimed formulas before they discovered Microdol. Who knows?
 

Pixophrenic

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You have to differentiate between the patent body and the list of claims. A patent can state all kinds of stuff, but the only thing really protected by that patent is the list of claims, and in this case this covers these two developer formulas at the end. Microdol was never covered by this patent, but the patent itself (which counts as publication on its own) may have excluded other people from later patenting crucial aspects of Microdol (e.g. the NaCl). It could have been just a defensive patent, or maybe Henn&Crabtree really thought of commercializing the two claimed formulas before they discovered Microdol. Who knows?
I agree that some ideas of this patent may have been used later by the same inventors, but not in Microdol. However, what is your objection to their Example 5 being Microdol?
 

Anon Ymous

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Well. I beg to differ. The formulas in the patent are all claimed to give reduction of grain. Most are basically D-23 with alkali metal chloride salt added AND a primary amine...

An older version of the Microdol-X msds lists more ingredients than the latest version, and these are:

70-75% Sodium sulfite (007757-83-7)
20-25% Sodium chloride (007647-14-5)
1-5% 4-(methylamino)phenol sulfate (000055-55-0)
< 1% Boric anhydride (001303-86-2)
< 1% Sodium hexametaphosphate (010124-56-8)

It doesn't mention any amine in any significant quantity. All of the patent's formulae have significant amounts of amines and would have been listed in such an msds, so this excludes example 5 of the patent from being the true MIcrodol-X formula. Apart from that, the msds lists the working solution's pH in the range of 7,7 to 7,9. If you mix the typical homebrew formula*, you will end up in this pH range (~7,8). IMHO, people get too carried away trying to find the exact Microdol-X formula, when the homebrew one works just fine.

* 100g sodium sulfite, 5g Metol, 30g NaCl
 

Pixophrenic

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I am afraid that we may be carried away by the mention of "different versions of Microdol", but from the MSDS you cite it is apparent that one of them did not contain any amine. However, I cannot fail to mention that from my own experiments adding boric anhydride may be important, as it converts to boric acid upon dissolution and lowers the pH of the solution. It also buffers it during the development. Bisulfite was used for the same purpose in D-25. Adding sodium citrate does not lower the pH but it does buffer the solution. I agree that the version we have in the resource section is a useful alternative, just do not expect it to work magic with all films.
 

Pixophrenic

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An older version of the Microdol-X msds lists more ingredients than the latest version, and these are:

70-75% Sodium sulfite (007757-83-7)
20-25% Sodium chloride (007647-14-5)
1-5% 4-(methylamino)phenol sulfate (000055-55-0)
< 1% Boric anhydride (001303-86-2)
< 1% Sodium hexametaphosphate (010124-56-8)

It doesn't mention any amine in any significant quantity. All of the patent's formulae have significant amounts of amines and would have been listed in such an msds, so this excludes example 5 of the patent from being the true MIcrodol-X formula. Apart from that, the msds lists the working solution's pH in the range of 7,7 to 7,9. If you mix the typical homebrew formula*, you will end up in this pH range (~7,8). IMHO, people get too carried away trying to find the exact Microdol-X formula, when the homebrew one works just fine.

* 100g sodium sulfite, 5g Metol, 30g NaCl
Well, for whatever it is worth, I just finished a little experiment with a metol-based concoction and Kentmere 100. The concoction was the following (per liter): metol 8 g, sodium sulfite 2 g, sodium citrate 44 g. NO chloride. I added citrate until the pH of this concoction was 7. I then left it for a month in a tightly closed vessel with very little air, to see how fast it would display any sign of oxidation. As there was none, I developed a few clips to determine the time. It turned out to be 70 minutes (yes, seventy) at 20 degrees Celsius. I only agitated it once every 10 minutes. However, I was rewarded with a soft negative that was very fine grained. I would not bet (without a microscope) that it was better than in the "Microdol homebrew", but it confirms my idea that at least for this film and metol the low pH is the essential factor for fine grain. Obviously, I went a little too far with the pH, and maintaining it in the narrow range between 7.7 and 7.9 is a compromise between development speed being within practical limits and fineness of grain, as produced by metol. This little experiment also provides an indirect hint as to why some people like D-23 and some don't, as depending on the purity of sulfite they may actually have different developers in their hands. Likewise, since a lay person has no means of adjusting pH with this level of precision, it means your outcome may vary also with the "homebrew Microdol" depending on the actual quality of chemicals used. Trying to use it with replenishment is asking for further trouble and may eventually completely defeat the purpose. It may "work" but there are definitely better developers out there.
 

Rudeofus

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Pixophrenic, did you just reinvent some sort of complicated version of D-25 ? Any reason for using so little sulfite?
 

Pixophrenic

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Pixophrenic, did you just reinvent some sort of complicated version of D-25 ? Any reason for using so little sulfite?
Yes, sort of. In my perception D-25 was constructed to lower the pH of D-23, which action in itself results in a finer grain, with a lot of sulfite acting as a buffer and a halide solvent. To isolate the effect of low pH, I did make another buffer, titrating metol with sodium citrate, but lowered sulfite to a minimum. At this point I am not going to try this concoction on all films currently on the market.
 
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