Microdol X Homebrew Question

Lachlan Young · Mar 21, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Lachlan, you got one of them in your post. Now, what is it?

It is..... TA DA.... Chlororesorcinol.

Now, you got one, what is the other????

PE

Is the other one also in Henn's patents?

Is the 'unpleasant' nature of it because it is merely extremely smelly (aka a mercaptan or something like that) or because it is harmful to health or the environment? I can think of a few I saw in some of Henn's earlier patents that could fall under the noxious category, if I'm reading their formulae correctly...

Regarding the Chlororesorcinol, my instinct was that it was the correct one, but then I found the later patent that disclosed the use of polyvinylpyrrolidone (in an HC110 type of developer by the looks of things) & I didn't totally trust my judgement!

So we can therefore say that Microdol-X is essentially: Metol, Sodium Sulfite, Sodium Chloride & a tiny amount of Chlororesorcinol?

Werewolfman · Mar 21, 2018

Who knows? It could be Resorcinol, or Sodium Bisulfite..

John Wiegerink · Mar 21, 2018

Lachlan Young said:
Is the other one also in Henn's patents?

Is the 'unpleasant' nature of it because it is merely extremely smelly (aka a mercaptan or something like that) or because it is harmful to health or the environment? I can think of a few I saw in some of Henn's earlier patents that could fall under the noxious category, if I'm reading their formulae correctly...

Regarding the Chlororesorcinol, my instinct was that it was the correct one, but then I found the later patent that disclosed the use of polyvinylpyrrolidone (in an HC110 type of developer by the looks of things) & I didn't totally trust my judgement!

So we can therefore say that Microdol-X is essentially: Metol, Sodium Sulfite, Sodium Chloride & a tiny amount of Chlororesorcinol?

Lachlan,
I think we all should pitch in and buy you a box of cigars or a bottle of Scotch for a job well done. I tip my hat to you my friend. JohnW

Lachlan Young · Mar 21, 2018

For those interested, the patent is US3161514A.

Werewolfman · Mar 21, 2018

If true, my guess was right about the Sodium Bisulfite then. I guess we solved the mystery!

Photo Engineer · Mar 21, 2018

Ok, here we go. Notes from a meeting with Dick Henn in the early '70s.

Microdol X

Elon
Choro resorcinol
Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Citrate **

** This is the missing ingredient.

Dick said that this would work like a low pH Rodinol with high levels of Sulfite. No other info in my notes except what appears to be a specific gravity and a concentration range of sulfite.

This is all I have and I hope it keeps you happy guys. I got this from Dick in a job interview. He wanted me to work with Grant Haist full time after some part time work on color thermal dye bleach. There are publications on this work. Anyhow, I turned him down to continue my work in color.

PE

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 22, 2018

OMG wow amazing!! Finally we learn the secrets of the elders!!!

John Wiegerink · Mar 22, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Ok, here we go. Notes from a meeting with Dick Henn in the early '70s.

Microdol X

Elon
Choro resorcinol
Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Citrate **

** This is the missing ingredient.

Dick said that this would work like a low pH Rodinol with high levels of Sulfite. No other info in my notes except what appears to be a specific gravity and a concentration range of sulfite.

This is all I have and I hope it keeps you happy guys. I got this from Dick in a job interview. He wanted me to work with Grant Haist full time after some part time work on color thermal dye bleach. There are publications on this work. Anyhow, I turned him down to continue my work in color.

PE

Fantastic! Now I'd like to buy you a beer, coffee or even that bottle of Scotch Ron. That was a good long treasure hunt. To many people want their secrets to die with them. I'd work on this right now, but I got to make a trip to pickup an enlarger to replace my Omega D3V. Thanks again Ron and have a great day. JohnW

Rudeofus · Mar 22, 2018

The most significant aspect of this disclosure is, that according to Ron, Formulary has 4-Chlororesorcinol in their inventory. Sodium Citrate can be either obtained or made from existing stash of Citric Acid and Lye. One would therefore expect, that after all these years in which Ron got asked and begged for the ingredient list at least a few are going to experiment with home brew Microdol-X. It would be particularly interesting, whether the 4-Chlororesorcinol is even necessary with today's higher purity of Metol. I am firmly convinced, that the 4-Chlororesorcinol was added to tackle PPD, which was a common Metol impurity back then. The Sodium Citrate might act as calcium sequestering agent. Since Sodium Citrate is a mostly non-toxic compound, it might have been added to Microdol-X in larger amounts and still remain unlisted in MSDS.

Werewolfman · Mar 22, 2018

Rudeofus said:
The Sodium Citrate might act as calcium sequestering agent. Since Sodium Citrate is a mostly non-toxic compound, it might have been added to Microdol-X in larger amounts and still remain unlisted in MSDS.

As I mentioned on a post regarding this, if you look up the MSDS for the Microdol-X Liquid Developer, the Sodium Citrate is listed in the MSDS. I've mentioned the Sodium Citrate before, but no one ever acknowledged it.

So, I was originally correct about the Sodium Citrate! Thanks for confirming!

http://hazard.com/msds/f2/clg/clgxr.html

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 22, 2018

I am happy I've lived to this point where I know the ingredients of Microdol-X I truly am! Now I have a few questions; what does sodium citrate and chlororesorcinol do in the formula?

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 23, 2018

So if chlororesorcinol was used in low enough amounts to go under the MSDS radar it would be be a small amount .5g.....

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 23, 2018

Now I wonder if this was the Plus in ID-11 Plus we had in the 1980's

RalphLambrecht · Mar 23, 2018

Tom1956 said:
Thanks, Keith. That's 1 vote for the 5g formula. I'm tempted to just run with it. If another reply comes in saying that, this thread can fade away, and I'll be happy enough. The anti-silvering/dichroic fog agent is something that will never be known.

I vote for and use 5g of metol.

John Wiegerink · Mar 23, 2018

RidingWaves said:
Now I wonder if this was the Plus in ID-11 Plus we had in the 1980's

It might have been? Ilford probably dropped the plus+ because it was nasty stuff. Or it just didn't make a difference in the negatives final outcome? JohnW

John Wiegerink · Mar 23, 2018

michael_r said:
If I remember correctly the compound in ID-11 Plus was cinnamic acid disulfide, and that ID-11 Plus was dropped because it didn't work well with the newest technology films.

Now that you said that I seem to remember that also. Pushing 70 and the mind is getting weak like the rest of the body. JohnW

RalphLambrecht · Mar 23, 2018

michael_r said:
If I remember correctly the compound in ID-11 Plus was cinnamic acid disulfide, and that ID-11 Plus was dropped because it didn't work well with the newest technology films.

that's news to me and ID11 stilll seems to be around, hopefully.

Lachlan Young · Mar 24, 2018

michael_r said:
According to the patent, chlororesorcinol prevented dichroic fog (which at one time was a potential problem with the use of highly solvent developers to develop the films around at that time - especially faster films). Sodium citrate was probably just a calcium sequestering agent.

Sodium Citrate is mentioned elsewhere in (I think) three other patents from Henn, once definitely as a possible calcium sequestrant - maybe I'm just not paying attention, but I struggle to see how it could replace sodium chloride in Microdol-X. For that matter, the last available MSDS for the powder Microdol-X that I can find definitely lists sodium chloride as an ingredient.

I'd also be interested in knowing if much work was done on incorporating agents effective against dichroic fog into the emulsions themselves, given that Henn suggests that it was feasible in the patent in question.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2018

Such agents are now used in emulsion making. That is why modern emulsions are much more resistant to dichroic fog.

The formula I posted above was straight from Dick. That is all I can say. It was about 50 years ago after all. He may have said something like this: Here is the formula (which I wrote down) and then he might have added - of course, you know there is some Sodium Chloride in there. Everyone knows that.

Of course I don't remember. I remember him saying that ultra high Sulfite levels along with the 4 chloro-resorcinol was used.

PE

fdonadio · Mar 24, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Of course I don't remember. I remember him saying that ultra high Sulfite levels along with the 4 chloro-resorcinol was used.

And what would be an “ultra high sulfite level”? I, for one, think D-76 takes a lot of sulfite. Would “ultra high” mean even more?

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2018

Consider Rodinal.

David Brown · Mar 25, 2018

michael_r said:
... I don't think Microdol-X is anything magical worth pursuing.

We're in the minority here, but that's at least two of us.

fdonadio · Mar 25, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Consider Rodinal.

I did a quick Google search and it seems to be 150g/L, 50% more than D-76. That’s really a lot of sulfite!

Edit: Rodinal asks for that much sulfite because it also contains a lot of p-aminophenol... right? Should we consider 150g of sulfite for, say, 5g of Elon?

Rudeofus · Mar 26, 2018

This MSDS for Microdol-X claims, that working solution contains between five and ten percent Sodium Sulfite, this would mean 50-100 g/l, not 150 g/l. If we also see the ratio of Sodium Sulfite vs. Sodium Chloride in concentrate and accept the commonly accepted Sodium Chloride level of 30 g/l, we end up with 84 - 112 g/l, with the upper limit from before we end up with a likely range 84-100 g/l Sodium Sulfite. I conclude we can safely trust Bill Troops number 100 g/l in FDC.

Lachlan Young · Mar 26, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Such agents are now used in emulsion making. That is why modern emulsions are much more resistant to dichroic fog.

This would (I guess) be why people have seemed to get ok results with generic Microdol-X-alike developers?

Photo Engineer said:
The formula I posted above was straight from Dick. That is all I can say. It was about 50 years ago after all. He may have said something like this: Here is the formula (which I wrote down) and then he might have added - of course, you know there is some Sodium Chloride in there. Everyone knows that.

Of course I don't remember. I remember him saying that ultra high Sulfite levels along with the 4 chloro-resorcinol was used.

PE

Not a problem, I guessed it must have been a situation like that, given the nature of the conversation. Was just wanting to avoid lacunae into which the unwary will hypothesise!

Finally, before I finish causing trouble about Microdol-X... I take it that a suitable replenisher would follow the same formula as the developer, but with about 30-50% more Metol & some sodium carbonate (as the Microdol-X datasheet suggests after the replenisher was discontinued) to adjust the pH as needed?

Microdol X Homebrew Question

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