Microdol X Homebrew Question

JW PHOTO · Feb 8, 2014

I was going to try to make a batch up using some benzophenone and/or dilactyl ethylenediamine, but didn't know where to find a source to buy either. I read somewhere that Calgon also helped eliminate either chemical fog or dichroic fog, but can't remember which. I'll keep playing.

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

Calgon prevents scum! That is it AFAIK.

Benzophenone is not very water soluble, but you don't need much. It is not a very common chemical, but I have worked with it.

Don't try it, you don't need it or the other chemicals with modern films.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 8, 2014

PE,
My water is fine so I've never used Calgon for anything, but what about dilactyl ethylenediamine? It seems to be mentioned more than once in the patends I've been reading. What does it do in a developer like Microdol-X? Is it a sequestering agent? To be very honest I really don't see much difference in the Perceptol, which is suppose to be the same as Microdol-X, and the simple D-23 with 30g of pickling salt. Maybe it's better to KISS on this one since it seems to work. Is that what you mean when you say above, You don't need it or the other chemicals with modern film? JohnW

Tom1956 · Feb 8, 2014

An interesting side note about salt

In an earlier post you will recall the engineer's admonition to not use ordinary grocery store salt due to the Sodium silicoaluminate anti-caking agent "when it rains, it pours". So the next night I purchased 100% pure salt in the same size plastic tube. The standard salt weighed 26 oz, and the Kosher pure was marked 13oz. Both had roughly the same volume in the tube, And since both were freshly opened there was no time for any hygroscopic tendencies to cloud a remarkable conclusion I made. And that is, that ordinary grocery store salt does not have "trace amounts" of the anti-caking agent. There's a LOT in that tube that is not salt, but sodium-whatever. I would have not had any idea that they would put that much of it in there with the salt. And it must be a heavy chemical because it weights twice as much. And the taste--Kosher salt is hardly salty tasting at all compared to the treated salt.
I hate to think of the mess I would have made of my film if I had ignored the advice and proceeded with the treated salt. Indeed, I may never buy that kind of salt again.

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

GO GET GOOD CHEMICALLY PURE SALT. Anything else is false economy.

FORGET THE TRACE INGREDIENTS. All you need is a sequestering agent such as calcium!

Thats about it.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 8, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
GO GET GOOD CHEMICALLY PURE SALT. Anything else is false economy.

FORGET THE TRACE INGREDIENTS. All you need is a sequestering agent such as calcium!

Thats about it.

PE

Got it PE! The light bulb just came on. Thanks, John

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

Well, there is a typo. It should read "a sequestering agent FOR Calcium. Or perhaps "such as one FOR Calcium".

Sorry.

PE

Tom1956 · Feb 8, 2014

Thanks. And I'm honored that you would have paid so much attention to my little thread. I promise I wasn't baiting you, as I have seen done on these photographic sites. If I had the means to buy lab-grade stuff, I would just go on and buy Perceptol and some fresh film, rather than tinkering with 60 or 70 feet of 10-year outdated junk and a tube of Jewish salt. I have an admittedly peculiar way of self-teaching. For instance, in this trek to know all things Microdol, I learned that the tough-guy actor Dolph Lungren was actually a straght-A student with chemistry degrees from 3 universities. Wonder what kind of photo chemist he would have made. And I learned that my high school and college chemistry qualifies me to the level of an intellectual amoeba compared to you guys. Thanks again.

JW PHOTO · Feb 8, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Well, there is a typo. It should read "a sequestering agent FOR Calcium. Or perhaps "such as one FOR Calcium".

Sorry.

PE

Yes, I had already figured that out since calcium wouldn't make a very good sequestering agent. PE, I do have one final question for you about Microdol/Microdol-X and Kodak VerichomePan film. Here goes! In the late 70's I bought my first Hasselblad for doing weddings. I tested it out with a roll of VerichromePan and developed it in Microdol(can't remember if it was Microdol-X or not) and I remember the negatives had a brownish like stain to them. It looked almost like a pyro stain, but I didn't even know what pyro stain was back then. I printed the negatives and they printed with no problems at all, but that was the last time I used Microdol until shortly before it was gone. I don't remember the color of the negatives from my more recent use of the developer being stained. I don't have those old negatives to examine anymore and was thinking that maybe I just imagined that brown tan color. Is my mind playing tricks on me or was there a brown tint with the old Microdol? John

Tom1956 · Feb 8, 2014

I can answer that. It was a beautiful brown stain. Poor-man's pyro, and it's a wondrous thing. And it was the X formula. Now since coming here, years of admiration for this miracle potion is revealed to my inquiring mind. And it's just weak D-23 with a little salt. Ain't that a hoot? I'm waiting for my distilled water to cool down a tad as we speak, to make my very first batch.

Photo Engineer · Feb 9, 2014

Ummm, guys.... It was probably from that "second" unlisted ingredient!

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 9, 2014

PE,
That's why I never really bought the "Microdol-X is the same as Perceptol" line. I don't ever remember the brownish tan color with any film in Perceptol like I got fro Microdol-X and VerichromePan. Now, to figure out which "second" unlisted ingredient could be the tanner? Hmmm, what can coat or stain those remaining crystals? This is more fun than a book of crossword puzzles. JohnW

NDKodak · Feb 9, 2014

I think I have 10yr old powder packets of Microdol X in the basement still. Part of a school darkroom I cleaned out a few years ago, have not tired any to see if it is still useable of not.

Tom1956 · Feb 9, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
PE,
That's why I never really bought the "Microdol-X is the same as Perceptol" line. I don't ever remember the brownish tan color with any film in Perceptol like I got fro Microdol-X and VerichromePan. Now, to figure out which "second" unlisted ingredient could be the tanner? Hmmm, what can coat or stain those remaining crystals? This is more fun than a book of crossword puzzles. JohnW

Verichrome Pan was a gift from heaven. I miss it. Like the old song says "mama don't take my Verichrome away". Well, they took it away. But at least Tri-X is still alive, for now. Tri-X in Microdol 1:3--that's the ticket.

Edit: mixed up my home brew batch last night and dropped in the exposed leader of some Tmax 400 into a 1:3 mixture and it developed it. Rolled off a 8 exposure roll and shot some today, but not enough for my testing tonight. My wood-cutting buddy was impatient, so I had to lay low on that. I might come back when I've developed my first roll, and give a report. I think everything's going to work out.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 9, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
It was likely a physical development effect from the highly solvent nature of Microdol - formation of "compact" rather than filamentary silver, which takes on a brownish appearance. It is not stain.

Ditto

The size of the silver grains has a definite effect on the perceived color. This is how warm tone print developers work.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 11, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
[brown stain] ... It was probably from that "second" unlisted ingredient!

Are you neither confirming nor denying that part of the 'X' is a small pinch of pyro?

I had always thought that the brownish tint to the negatives was due to the finer grain - as in colloidal silver being bright yellow.

Tri-X in M-X 1:3 was my favorite combination in my younger days - really lovely gradation and remarkably fine grain. I had to be very careful not to overexpose; there was always the danger that shadow detail would disappear.

Try 35mm TMax-100 in M-X. The grain is as fine as Tech Pan. Unfortunately the gradation isn't the same - the prints look 35mm, rather than that almost 4x5 look of 35mm Tech Pan.

As to dichroic fog: I have had problems with homebrew Microdol - so much so that I bought a lifetime supply of bags of M-X before it went off the market.

Tom1956 · Feb 11, 2014

I don't think PE is the kind to toy. I think he's as straight-shooter as they come in this field. He stated a long time ago that M-X had a proprietary ingredient that even he did not know what was in it. Quite possibly nobody at Kodak ever knew what that product vendor was selling them to mix in with their formula.
I think we all have the best information obtainable now, and just have to be happy enough we even have that much of the puzzle. It's enough to proceed with some good film developing, and call the case closed.
I was thinking about PE and the few others like him out there who have retired, but still have the goodness of heart and dedication to the craft to use his retirement sharing the same thing he had to get up and go to work making a living on. Because I can CERTAINLY tell you, when or if I ever get to "retire" and get off the printing press, you'll NEVER find me on the printer's chat sites.

Rudeofus · Feb 11, 2014

Tom1956 said:
I don't think PE is the kind to toy. I think he's as straight-shooter as they come in this field. He stated a long time ago that M-X had a proprietary ingredient that even he did not know what was in it. Quite possibly nobody at Kodak ever knew what that product vendor was selling them to mix in with their formula.

PE had stated quite clearly that he has Dick Henn's notes with the recipe for Microdol-X on his desk, and that Kodak would stomp on his feet if he ever disclosed it. If you know what Kodak spent on lawyers during the bankruptcy proceeding, you know that one shouldn't mess with them

Tom1956 · Feb 11, 2014

Well then he has integrity, which is the same result. And I suppose Kodak would eat him alive. Let's do the guy a favor and don't try to drag it out of him. We have enough info here to be happy with. Don't irritate the guy, is my policy. We're darn lucky he doesn't take up golf or radio control planes and forgets about us.

Photo Engineer · Feb 11, 2014

It isn't pyro, and that is all on the subject. It is now closed.

PE

Tom1956 · Feb 11, 2014

BTW--if any of you guys ever did want to take up RC planes, the best simulator learning program is Reality Craft RC Plane Master, and the best fields to find are the ones where the last crop was soybeans. That program is the closest thing to how the plane actually behaves that I have ever seen. You get good on that, and you'll have your best luck. And I guarantee you flying that plane is every bit as exciting, and frightening, and satisfying as a real plane. Every bit the fun, without having to die in the crash. Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Feb 11, 2014

From Microdol X to RC planes? WOW. We just jumped the track.

Anyhow, thinking what Nicholas Linden said about finely divided silver being yellow, yes, he is on the right track. I decided to let you know that as far as I can determine, this ingredient not mentioned is there to prevent too much "yellowing" of the image. So thus a slightly brownish tone. It is not perfect.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 11, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
From Microdol X to RC planes? WOW. We just jumped the track.

Anyhow, thinking what Nicholas Linden said about finely divided silver being yellow, yes, he is on the right track. I decided to let you know that as far as I can determine, this ingredient not mentioned is there to prevent too much "yellowing" of the image. So thus a slightly brownish tone. It is not perfect.

PE

PE, Would this ingredient also significantly the rate of development. Also, is phenylmercaptotetrazole the same as Mercaptophenyltetrazole?

Photo Engineer · Feb 11, 2014

JW, I don't understand your first question. There must be a typo.

As for the names, technically, PMT is wrong. The entire name contains a lot of numbers and other junk, so it is shorthand for you "civilians" who don't know organic chemistry. It may or may not be is the answer. I would have to look up the correct chemical name, but if you are looking for some, last I heard the Formulary had it in stock but unlisted.

PE

Tom1956 · Feb 11, 2014

I'm not versed in "chatroom etiquette" or whatever you call it. Is there any such thing as original poster's prerogative to deem a thread he started as completed? My own satisfaction and intent has been long answered, and I'm happy enough. I ask this because I don't want to be connected with being the cause of any experts who answered to be pulled or baited into any gray area in their non-compete or vows to secrecy to their past employers. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive to it, but my Dad impressed upon me at an early age the limits of taking advantage of other's good nature. Thank all you people. Asked and answered. Regards.

Microdol X Homebrew Question

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