Microdol X Homebrew Question

Tom1956 · Feb 7, 2014

Because I like the fine grain. I remember the days of my youth shooting Tri-X on my trusty Mamiya/Sekor 1000 DTL, developing in Microdol 1:3 that I use to buy in the quart bottles, and making 11x14's that looked like Panatomic. I'm going back to those days, except with my Nikkormat that I tested to be on-the-money. D-23 is kinda grainy. Not like Rodinal, of course. I remember when I bought a bottle of THAT rat poison. Getting rid of all the MF and 4x5 junk cluttering up the house, and going back to the simpler life. A 35 and an 8x10.

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2014

Tom, that silicate salt in the NaCl that you saw is going to leave a cloudy developer as noted earlier. This stuff is made up of tiny particles that can lodge in the gelatin and create permanent "grain" in the form of little black dots on the film and little white dots on your prints.

So, there is where I am coming from. It may be a false economy.

PE

Tom1956 · Feb 7, 2014

I'll look for son=me other kind of salt at the store tonight. Did you know a big pound tube of salt at the Food Lion is only 43¢? That's pretty wild these days. You couldn't put a stamp on it and mail it for that. I'll check out what the water softener pellets have in them too. Certainly there's some plain salt out there in this podunk town.

JW PHOTO · Feb 7, 2014

Tom1956 said:
I'll look for son=me other kind of salt at the store tonight. Did you know a big pound tube of salt at the Food Lion is only 43¢? That's pretty wild these days. You couldn't put a stamp on it and mail it for that. I'll check out what the water softener pellets have in them too. Certainly there's some plain salt out there in this podunk town.

Kosher salt is I think the same as pickling salt. Most stores should carry that. JohnW

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2014

No, not Kosher salt. Pickling salt, as mentioned earlier is better.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 7, 2014

PE, your 100% right! I just dug my box out from the bottom shelf of my chemical cupboard and it's Morton Canning & Pickling Salt. I thought it said kosher on the box also, but does not. Check before you type I guess!

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2014

Hey, I just made a big goof on another thread. The only thing to do is correct the error and go on. No problem.

Best wishes.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Hey, I just made a big goof on another thread. The only thing to do is correct the error and go on. No problem.

Best wishes.

PE

Thanks PE! How much snow you do you have now? This is one of the hardest winters we've had in my area of Michigan since I was a kid and I'm near 64. It is a good time to play in the darkroom so it could be worse I guess. Think Spring!

Tom1956 · Feb 7, 2014

Thanks for the fun thread guys. It's been another one of those bad prostate days. That miserable thing can make you feel so terrible. Anyway, the store had a 4lb square of pickling salt and 1 13oz tube of Kosher salt. Both touted how they had nothing else in the package. I bought the 99¢ Kosher. It'll do. I've got about 2/3 of a hundred foot roll of T-max 400. This weekend my buddy and I are supposed to go out in the woods with our chainsaws and scare us up some firewood. I'm going to take along my Nikkormat and 2 or 3 five exposure rolls and try to pin down some film speeds and development times. All of the Hasselblad and 4x5 junk is sitting in a pile, dis-owned and unloved, awaiting sale. I'm going to do some shooting with the freedom from film frugality and "planning", just like the olden days. I'm tired of owning real nice equipment when the money needs to be put to some home maintenance, before this barn rots away.

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2014

Very very cold here but not all that much snow compared to some years. We have about 1 ft now, but it is mostly cleared.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 7, 2014

PE guess where your snow is now? You can have it back if you want. If I didn't have a snow blower I'd be dead now. It's been exceptionally cold here also and no warm breaks with very few days even reaching 20 degrees. Must be global warming??? My darkroom is warm and cozy enough to wait the winter out in, but it's hard to get out and get some pictures. JohnW:crazy:

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2014

Wind blows from west to east. We have your snow. Thanks.

PE

JW PHOTO · Feb 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Wind blows from west to east. We have your snow. Thanks.

PE

Very true! I guess I got to find somebody from Milwaukee to blame instead of you. Take care PE. It's bed time for this Bonzo.

mrred · Feb 7, 2014

We seemed to have missed most of that here.

JW PHOTO · Feb 8, 2014

mrred said:
We seemed to have missed most of that here.

Trust me, you're not missing a thing! I usually don't mind winter, but this one sucks.

JW PHOTO · Feb 8, 2014

Since I've been a little house-bound because of the weather I thought I'd do some playing in the darkroom. This topic got my curiosity going so I mixed up a gallon of Perceptol I had on had and started running some comparisons. The first of which is between Perceptol 1:2 and Beutler. The next will be between Perceptol 1:2 and homemade Microdol/Perceptol. I'll scan the results and post them. I did a rough test of the Perceptol vs Beutler yesterday just to get exposure /development fairly even and to be very honest I don't see much difference in the two when scanned. I'll fine-tune it today and try to eliminate all variables. JohnW

#1 Son · Feb 8, 2014

Shawn Dougherty said:
And don't forget this:

https://www.google.com/patents/US24...a=X&ei=CnvMUuC4AcHGrgHnqIG4DQ&ved=0CE4Q6AEwAw

though as Michael says, it's a bit unclear in terms of what was in the actual packaged developer.

I remember last year, that KennyE posted the same information on DigitalTruth, and Ian Grant stated that he was all wet. So if PE, states that it was patented, maybe KennyE knows more than we are all giving him credit for.

KennyE stated that lithium hydroxides was used because Kodak discovered that the sodium hydroxides broke down the other chemicals if moisture got in the packageing. And turned the solutions a very light yellow. So a new form of sodium metaborate was developed using lithium instead.

KennyE stated that the patent for Kodak's discovery is also posted on the web.

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

Lithium salts are used in several Kodak products including RA-4 chemistry. There, they speed up development and AFAIK have no effect on development stability as it is a liquid kit.

I can say that the patent in the above reference is just about Microdol X except for one ingredient or perhaps 2. I would have to look for my notes from Dick Henn. I do notice that the cited patent list has some interesting references to similar "products". You might want to look at them.

PE

Trask · Feb 8, 2014

Sulphur dioxide -- what else would have to be in there with SS, metol and NaCl to produce sulphur dioxide as the developer decomposes? I presume this decomposition refers to the dry mixed developer, without water added; sulphur is an element (according to wikipedia), so something would have to contribute the sulphur and we'd have to find the oxygen somewhere. Sulphur is yellow, which may account for Microdol-X being tan in color.

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

Sodium Sulfite is in Microdol X. If acidified, it releases Sulfur Dioxide gas. But, due to the quantity of base, this is not likely to happen. It may be oxidized Metol.

Or other oxidized materials.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Feb 8, 2014

Trask said:
Sulphur dioxide -- what else would have to be in there with SS, metol and NaCl to produce sulphur dioxide as the developer decomposes? I presume this decomposition refers to the dry mixed developer, without water added; sulphur is an element (according to wikipedia), so something would have to contribute the sulphur and we'd have to find the oxygen somewhere. Sulphur is yellow, which may account for Microdol-X being tan in color.

Sulfur is insoluble in water. Should any sulfur be in the dry mix the resulting solution would be cloudy or have a lot of sediment.

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

Thank you Gerry. I should have thought of that!

Rudeofus · Feb 8, 2014

PhotoEngineer says there are one to two extra compounds compared to what the patent lists.

First, we know that any commercial developer worth its money contains a chelating agent to take care of water hardness. (there was a url link here which no longer exists) claims that some MSDS lists Calgon.

Second, the change from Microdol to Microdol-X brought in an extra compound to deal with dichroic fog. There is this patent US3161513 for exactly this purpose by some Mr. Henn (who's name just happens to be on that other patent already posted), and it specifically mentions 2,4-Dihydroxybenzophenone. PhotoEngineer, however, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) there is no Benzophenone or derivative in Microdol-X. Since he knows the real formula we might as well believe him and console ourselves with the fact: we are not going to learn the Microdol-X recipe regardless of how (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (there was a url link here which no longer exists) pops up.

Tom1956 · Feb 8, 2014

As the OP, I'm satisfied I had the best info and alternatives available. Had to cut wood today so still haven't mixed up some and developed any of these rolls laying around. But I think everything is going to be alright. Never seen dichroic fog in real life myself, but we'll see. Remember that 75% of the work these Kodak chemists did was to insure the company was putting out a consistent product, over and above the basic formulas that would have probably been OK without all that extra research.
To wit, have you ever hear of an Eastman Kodak product that had to be taken back because it was defective? I never have. It was always the furthest thing from my mind. So that's what any "extra chemicals" were for--quality control for its own sake.

Photo Engineer · Feb 8, 2014

I did hear of one product being taken back due to a defect, and the amazing thing was that the customer loved it and did not want to give it up! Oh well.

Anyhow, the ingredient is moot. It was there for dichroic fog and this is designed out of most all modern films so dichroic fog rarely appears. I would not worry. That is one major reason that I never mention it.

PE

Microdol X Homebrew Question

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