MF Newbie

[AeisLugh]

For outdoor work, I also find the Mk I eyeball a good meter, and free!

I'm not sure if I'm THAT good at judging lighting conditions quite yet.

 

[DBP]

Aw shucks, that's how I learned, at a very young age. And I keep a Sunny 16 card in my pocket in case I space out. Fred Parker has a wonderful tutorial at http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm.

 

[AeisLugh]

Aw shucks, that's how I learned, at a very young age. And I keep a Sunny 16 card in my pocket in case I space out. Fred Parker has a wonderful tutorial at http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm.

Thanks, I'll definitely give it a read. I've noticed on a couple of occasions that the light meter reading resulted in a picture that was NOT what I saw. (take a look at my picture "into the tunnel" as an example) the scene was WAY darker than came out in the photo. Granted, in the case of "into the tunnel" the result was pretty cool, but it still wasn't what I'd been aiming for. If I can learn to read the lighting conditions myself, all for the better

 

[Nick Zentena]

If KEH will ship to canada, then that's even better. Of course, the shipping is bound to be expensive, but I guess some things are worth it.

A camera and a couple lenses maybe a few other small items tends to be about $30 in my expierence. It won't be less since I think $30 is the min shipping fee but it won't be much more.

 

[Joseph Allen]

Bronica ETRSI is an excellent choice -- a lot of bang for the buck. And the prices are so good right now, you can actually afford to get more than one lens and accessories, etc. A basic kit shouldn't cost you more than $300-350. Don't be afraid of KEH's bargain grade stuff -- it's usually in great condition and the prices are excellent.

 

[gnashings]

Thanks, I'll definitely give it a read. I've noticed on a couple of occasions that the light meter reading resulted in a picture that was NOT what I saw. (take a look at my picture "into the tunnel" as an example) the scene was WAY darker than came out in the photo. Granted, in the case of "into the tunnel" the result was pretty cool, but it still wasn't what I'd been aiming for. If I can learn to read the lighting conditions myself, all for the better

The reason for this is that the majority of the picture was something you wanted to portray as darker than middle gray - the camera averaged out the whole frame (probably with an emphasis on the middle - but not exclusively), and exposed for that. A tells you how to set your exposure to expose for middle gray - generally, this is ok as a scene contains darker andlighter areas. With predominantly dark scenes (thatyou want to keep dark) or predominantly bright ones (like snow), the meter doesn't know and gets fooled. That's why that Mk I eyeball is such a treasure - use it alone if you wish, but always use it in conjunction with your meter - as soon as you understand what the meter is doing, you will know when its being fooled. There was a threadon this not long ago that I think I typed a novel in...
I doubt you will miss the lack of meter in the camera, especially if your aim is some studio work (you mentioned lighting kits) - and that would only strengthen my vote for the Mamiya given its rotating back and close focusing ability. Read up on those meters, too!

Peter.

 

[MattKing]

The Mamiya 645E will get you a good, relatively new camera with built in meter and a fairly high amount of interchangeability with other modernish Mamiya 645 equipment. If you get it with the Rapid Wind Grip it will be very similar in handling to many 35mm cameras. KEH has full kits at reasonable prices.

And if you buy from them, they'll start sending you their catalogue too!

I've bought from them and been very satisfied (although I used my US shipping address - just a few minutes from my home).

Some of the photographs in my Gallery here are shot with my Mamiya 645 equipment - either Mamiya 645 Super or Mamiya 645 Pro. The Super and the Pro (and the current ProTl) offer interchangeable film magazines that use the Mamiya inserts, while the 645E only uses the inserts - you cannot change film mid-roll. With the 645E, I believe you are limited to the built in eye level prism, while the other models allow prisms, metering prisms, or waist level finders.

Matt

 

[AeisLugh]

The reason for this is that the majority of the picture was something you wanted to portray as darker than middle gray - the camera averaged out the whole frame (probably with an emphasis on the middle - but not exclusively), and exposed for that. A tells you how to set your exposure to expose for middle gray - generally, this is ok as a scene contains darker andlighter areas. With predominantly dark scenes (thatyou want to keep dark) or predominantly bright ones (like snow), the meter doesn't know and gets fooled. That's why that Mk I eyeball is such a treasure - use it alone if you wish, but always use it in conjunction with your meter - as soon as you understand what the meter is doing, you will know when its being fooled. There was a threadon this not long ago that I think I typed a novel in...
I doubt you will miss the lack of meter in the camera, especially if your aim is some studio work (you mentioned lighting kits) - and that would only strengthen my vote for the Mamiya given its rotating back and close focusing ability. Read up on those meters, too!

Peter.

Studio work is definitely somewhere I want to go in the future. I have all sorts of theme/art shoots that I want to do, and I want to make sure I do them with good equipment if possible. Since the themes are things that could very well end up as posters, I figure an MF camera would capture so much more detail and result in a better end product. Of course, that depends on getting to the point where I can do some large prints lol.

I'm contemplating making a print out of that website on using the eyeball mkI to really read and study. I've only read a bit of it so far, and it's got me really interested

 

[Greg_E]

From what I've read recently about the Kiev 88, the Hartblei version has been "worked" on to make it decent, and also the models that you buy from Kiev Camera here in the states. That said, there were a couple peopl saying that you may go through a couple before getting a good one.

 

[AeisLugh]

The Mamiya 645E will get you a good, relatively new camera with built in meter and a fairly high amount of interchangeability with other modernish Mamiya 645 equipment. If you get it with the Rapid Wind Grip it will be very similar in handling to many 35mm cameras. KEH has full kits at reasonable prices.

And if you buy from them, they'll start sending you their catalogue too!

I've bought from them and been very satisfied (although I used my US shipping address - just a few minutes from my home).

Some of the photographs in my Gallery here are shot with my Mamiya 645 equipment - either Mamiya 645 Super or Mamiya 645 Pro. The Super and the Pro (and the current ProTl) offer interchangeable film magazines that use the Mamiya inserts, while the 645E only uses the inserts - you cannot change film mid-roll. With the 645E, I believe you are limited to the built in eye level prism, while the other models allow prisms, metering prisms, or waist level finders.

Matt

is that the same as the 645 auto-exposure? thats the only mamiya 645 that KEH has listed, and the basic kit, they want over a grand for. right now, that's on the pricey side for me. If I were going to spend that much on a camera, my wife would probably press me to get a digital SLR

 

[Greg_E]

I would stay clear of the Mamiya 645 E, seems too limited to me, I would rather have an old 1000s with a decent prism finder, and the waste level finder, and maybe the motor drive. The motor drive for the old 645, 645J an 1000s is LOUD, take it apart and lubricate all the gears to dull the noise. The newer 645 Super and Pro are nice bodies, but the whole line has recently been KILLED! I read a post at Fred Miranda that the "new" Mamiya has just killed the Pro TL and all the old non-AF lenses! Considering that I own a 1000s, Pro, and Super bodies, as well as a bunch of lenses from 30mm full frame fish eye up to 500mm, and a few backs (including the 35mm back), that kind of bothers me. And I guess I'm strange, I like the waste level finder. I bet the RB and RZ are not far behind, and even the 6 and 7 range finders might be in trouble unless they can do something like the Leica R8 and R9 with the DMR back.

If you get a good deal on the Mamiya 645 AF or AFD, you might want to grab it. No waste level finder, but at least it will remain current for a while.

 

[Greg_E]

There were 3 Mamiya 645 Super and one Pro for around $600 or less that looked good. I'd go for the Super with the 110mm lens, but I really don't like a "normal" length lens.

edit sorry the pro was $700

 

[AeisLugh]

I would stay clear of the Mamiya 645 E, seems too limited to me, I would rather have an old 1000s with a decent prism finder, and the waste level finder, and maybe the motor drive. The motor drive for the old 645, 645J an 1000s is LOUD, take it apart and lubricate all the gears to dull the noise. The newer 645 Super and Pro are nice bodies, but the whole line has recently been KILLED! I read a post at Fred Miranda that the "new" Mamiya has just killed the Pro TL and all the old non-AF lenses! Considering that I own a 1000s, Pro, and Super bodies, as well as a bunch of lenses from 30mm full frame fish eye up to 500mm, and a few backs (including the 35mm back), that kind of bothers me. And I guess I'm strange, I like the waste level finder. I bet the RB and RZ are not far behind, and even the 6 and 7 range finders might be in trouble unless they can do something like the Leica R8 and R9 with the DMR back.

If you get a good deal on the Mamiya 645 AF or AFD, you might want to grab it. No waste level finder, but at least it will remain current for a while.

If I happen to find one at an affordable price, I'll keep that in mind. Right now though, I'm really leaning towards the ETRSi or the RB67. So far those ones are getting lots of recommendations

 

[AeisLugh]

There were 3 Mamiya 645 Super and one Pro for around $600 or less that looked good. I'd go for the Super with the 110mm lens, but I really don't like a "normal" length lens.

edit sorry the pro was $700

is that under the Mamiya M645 section?

 

[Greg_E]

Those RB systems can get really low priced! The RZ would give you something that is a little more versatile, it can use both the RZ lenses and the RB lenses. Plus if you get the newest version, you can couple it to many of the digital backs. That and I think you can get a 72mm sheet film back for the RZII, but I might be wrong.

 

[Greg_E]

Bottom of the first page.

Mamiya M645
M645 SUPER WITH 110 F2.8 (58), AE PRISM N, 120 SUPER BACK, POWER DRIVE N, MEDIUM FORMAT SLR MANUAL FOCUS CAMERA OUTFIT

for $565

You might be able to come close or beat it on ebay, if you are lucky. You might also try the forums at http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ They have a pretty active buy/sell forum, and you should be less likely to get ripped off.

Word of warning! If the Mamiya 645 says it has a small shutter problem that should be easy to fix... look elsewhere. The shutter mechanism in the Super is miserable to try and fix! In fact anything that doesn't work on that body and the camera should be avoided.

 

[AeisLugh]

Bottom of the first page.

Mamiya M645
M645 SUPER WITH 110 F2.8 (58), AE PRISM N, 120 SUPER BACK, POWER DRIVE N, MEDIUM FORMAT SLR MANUAL FOCUS CAMERA OUTFIT

for $565

You might be able to come close or beat it on ebay, if you are lucky. You might also try the forums at http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ They have a pretty active buy/sell forum, and you should be less likely to get ripped off.

Word of warning! If the Mamiya 645 says it has a small shutter problem that should be easy to fix... look elsewhere. The shutter mechanism in the Super is miserable to try and fix! In fact anything that doesn't work on that body and the camera should be avoided.

thanks, I'll remember that

 

[gnashings]

...Since the themes are things that could very well end up as posters, I figure an MF camera would capture so much more detail and result in a better end product. Of course, that depends on getting to the point where I can do some large prints lol.

I'm contemplating making a print out of that website on using the eyeball mkI to really read and study. I've only read a bit of it so far, and it's got me really interested

Definitely a good reason to contemplate a MF system (large prints), but I think you will be so impressed with what you get in terms of look and tonality, that even at normal enlargements it will be something that will put a smile on your face!
I have a confession - I just like those big negs, they make me smile... Sometimes I just look at them - it makes me happy

I know I got a little bit off topic with the meter discussion - but since you mention that web site and the chart, I give myself license to blab some more - I think (this is my opinion only, and there are people on this site that were taking photos before I was even a twinkle in anyone's eye) that a chart like that is wonderful, and developing "the eye" is something that you should do, but - get a decent meter. Learn exactly how it works. Point it at everything. Compare what it tells you, to the chart, to what you would have "guesstimated" based on the eyeball - I think this is a good approach to understanding the what actually happens with exposure. One thing that I found an eye opener is to point a spot meter at various things in a scene and see exactly how many different conditions you are trying to photograph at once - tells you a lot about the mechanics of "getting it right", and why sometimes one fails to do so. I would not rely on any one method, but observe using all three, that way you will learn those situation where each one tends to get fooled and leads you down the wrong path and why - so you can avoid it.

Peter.

 

[gnashings]

Word of warning! If the Mamiya 645 says it has a small shutter problem that should be easy to fix... look elsewhere. The shutter mechanism in the Super is miserable to try and fix! In fact anything that doesn't work on that body and the camera should be avoided.

Again, I would say - unless size is a concern (and you said it is not), the RB67 - built like a Russian tank, and has the added adventage of leaf shutters in the actual lens. This is good for a number of reasons - mostly because you said you will shoot with flash a lot, and a leaf shutter synchs up at any speed, where as focal plane shutters usually have a limit, and in MF that limit is usually painfully low (see the Pentax 6x7 - 1/15th sec, I think). Also, in the RB each lens = new shutter. You will probably have more than one lens at some point soon, which means even if the shutter fails in one, your actual camera system is not crippled. Add to that the absolute mechanical nature of this camera, and its pretty much the camera to survive a nuclear war with - if you have film, you will have pictures (assuming it was in a lead vault, what with the radiation and all ... but lets hope that will not be an issue...ok, I am sleepy). And you can get a metered prism for it. Plus, if you want to shoot 645, there is a 645 back for the RB ( I am 99.9% sure), as well as a motorized 6x8 back, a 6x6 back as well - try shooting anything other than 645 with a 645... Not knocking that format either, but the RB is so immensly flexible that its really the one camera to have - if you have to pick just one, this one will do it all, as well as being the bang for the buck.
I will do everyone a favour now and go to sleep

Peter.

 

[AeisLugh]

Again, I would say - unless size is a concern (and you said it is not), the RB67 - built like a Russian tank, and has the added adventage of leaf shutters in the actual lens. This is good for a number of reasons - mostly because you said you will shoot with flash a lot, and a leaf shutter synchs up at any speed, where as focal plane shutters usually have a limit, and in MF that limit is usually painfully low (see the Pentax 6x7 - 1/15th sec, I think). Also, in the RB each lens = new shutter. You will probably have more than one lens at some point soon, which means even if the shutter fails in one, your actual camera system is not crippled. Add to that the absolute mechanical nature of this camera, and its pretty much the camera to survive a nuclear war with - if you have film, you will have pictures (assuming it was in a lead vault, what with the radiation and all ... but lets hope that will not be an issue...ok, I am sleepy). And you can get a metered prism for it. Plus, if you want to shoot 645, there is a 645 back for the RB ( I am 99.9% sure), as well as a motorized 6x8 back, a 6x6 back as well - try shooting anything other than 645 with a 645... Not knocking that format either, but the RB is so immensly flexible that its really the one camera to have - if you have to pick just one, this one will do it all, as well as being the bang for the buck.
I will do everyone a favour now and go to sleep

Peter.

Hrmm...The strict mechanical nature of the RB does sound very appealing. I've said before that there is just WAY too much electronic noise in our lives today (this coming from an electronics technician lol) so having something so simply mechanical would be a very nice change.

You've definitely started swaying me to the RB

 

[AeisLugh]

Definitely a good reason to contemplate a MF system (large prints), but I think you will be so impressed with what you get in terms of look and tonality, that even at normal enlargements it will be something that will put a smile on your face!
I have a confession - I just like those big negs, they make me smile... Sometimes I just look at them - it makes me happy

I know I got a little bit off topic with the meter discussion - but since you mention that web site and the chart, I give myself license to blab some more - I think (this is my opinion only, and there are people on this site that were taking photos before I was even a twinkle in anyone's eye) that a chart like that is wonderful, and developing "the eye" is something that you should do, but - get a decent meter. Learn exactly how it works. Point it at everything. Compare what it tells you, to the chart, to what you would have "guesstimated" based on the eyeball - I think this is a good approach to understanding the what actually happens with exposure. One thing that I found an eye opener is to point a spot meter at various things in a scene and see exactly how many different conditions you are trying to photograph at once - tells you a lot about the mechanics of "getting it right", and why sometimes one fails to do so. I would not rely on any one method, but observe using all three, that way you will learn those situation where each one tends to get fooled and leads you down the wrong path and why - so you can avoid it.

Peter.

LOL, yeah, the idea of negatives that large just makes me shiver. to be able to hold a negative up to the light and not have to squint to make out details.... I'm really starting to drool now lol

 

[firecracker]

Mamiya 645 bodies are being sold at real low prices in Japan. I've been kind of thinking of buying a used M645 or 1000s since they have been going for way under 300 USD at the used camera stores over here.

 

[firecracker]

For some reason, today many used Mamiya cameras are cheaper than used Eastern European cameras such as Pentacon Six. It used to be the opposite.

 

[Greg_E]

For some reason, today many used Mamiya cameras are cheaper than used Eastern European cameras such as Pentacon Six. It used to be the opposite.

Pretty sad what can happen when the company sells to a digital only maker. Too bad that they can't see the fact that if you modified the capture back a small amount, you could then use it with just about any camera. The 1000s is a pretty nice machine for the film size. If I had it to do all over again, I might be tempted to go with a Mamiya 6 or Mamiya 7. An RZ IID would be great as you can use the RZ lenses, RB lenses, film backs from 35mm up to 70mm (I think) cut sheet, metered prism, TTL, motor drive, digital back, etc. I think it may offer a mechanical only mode when you use the RB lenses. So while the RB is a great camera, I think I would have prefered the RZ and moved up to an RZ IID by now. For the 1000s, I prefer the waist level finder, for the Super or Pro I only have the prism, so I'm not sure about that one yet. The 1000s with the prism finder is a very heavy camera to haul around, add a motor drive and it's heavy and bulky.

 

[AeisLugh]

Mamiya 645 bodies are being sold at real low prices in Japan. I've been kind of thinking of buying a used M645 or 1000s since they have been going for way under 300 USD at the used camera stores over here.

are there websites for the places you are seeing those prices?