MF Newbie

[AeisLugh]

Out of curiousity, what MF camera do you guys recommend for someone just starting out in MF, and who really needs to watch the price tag?

I've been looking at the Bronica ETRS outfits on www.keh.com and so far have heard very little bad about them, but wanted to get opinions from you guys.

 

[Nick Zentena]

What do you want to do with it?

The nice thing about the ETR and similar cameras is it's a system camera and you can add/remove things to do almost anything you want.

Other cameras can be more specialized. The little Fuji auto everything sounds like an interesting travel camera. The big Mamiyas have rotating backs so you can change from portrait to landscape without moving the camera itself. Other cameras have different pluses and minuses.

 

[AeisLugh]

What do you want to do with it?

The nice thing about the ETR and similar cameras is it's a system camera and you can add/remove things to do almost anything you want.

Other cameras can be more specialized. The little Fuji auto everything sounds like an interesting travel camera. The big Mamiyas have rotating backs so you can change from portrait to landscape without moving the camera itself. Other cameras have different pluses and minuses.

more of what I do with my 35mm SLR. Portraits, landscapes, artistic work.

 

[ricksplace]

If you really want to watch the price tag, try a used Twin Lens Reflex (TLR) I recently picked up a Yashica A on ebay for a whopping $15 plus shipping. Even with a three element lens, it will knock the socks off any 35mm. The waist level finder is a little hard to become accustomed to with the image left/right reversed. You'll wobble around like a drunken sailor for a while.

You can probably get a reasonably good used TLR for under $100, and sell it again for the same amount if you want to trade up. There are lots of threads on here about TLR's. Enjoy the reading!

 

[AeisLugh]

If you really want to watch the price tag, try a used Twin Lens Reflex (TLR) I recently picked up a Yashica A on ebay for a whopping $15 plus shipping. Even with a three element lens, it will knock the socks off any 35mm. The waist level finder is a little hard to become accustomed to with the image left/right reversed. You'll wobble around like a drunken sailor for a while.

You can probably get a reasonably good used TLR for under $100, and sell it again for the same amount if you want to trade up. There are lots of threads on here about TLR's. Enjoy the reading!

I don't know....everytime I see a TLR, I get the "what the hell is that!?" feeling. they just look so freakish to me, I've always prefered SLRs because you know you are seeing exactly the view the film will see. TLR's tend to have slight offset in closer ranges, don't they?

 

[naturephoto1]

I don't know....everytime I see a TLR, I get the "what the hell is that!?" feeling. they just look so freakish to me, I've always prefered SLRs because you know you are seeing exactly the view the film will see. TLR's tend to have slight offset in closer ranges, don't they?

TLRs like Rangefinder cameras do have limited focusing to about 3' (1 meter) and both generally suffer from some degree of parallax. The Rollei TLRs which are more expensive than the Yashicamats do have a fairly good correction built in to the finder to correct for the parallax issues.

Rich

 

[AeisLugh]

TLRs like Rangefinder cameras do have limited focusing to about 3' (1 meter) and both generally suffer from some degree of parallax. The Rollei TLRs which are more expensive than the Yashicamats do have a fairly good correction built in to the finder to correct for the parallax issues.

Rich

yeah, that's what I figured. I'd really rather stick with an SLR type

 

[Nick Zentena]

You could look at the older Pentax or Mamiya 645s to. I think the Bronica is a better deal right now but it doesn't hurt to compare.

 

[Cheryl Jacobs]

I loved my Bronica SQ-Ai (6x6) until it was liberated from me last year. I ended up finding a great deal on an ETRS, so that's now my primary camera and I love it.

 

[gnashings]

You would be hard pressed to get more for your money than a Mamiya RB67 - a truly professional system that you can grow with, that I have seen go for as little as $200 + with one lens, one back, and a basic waist level finder. It is a little bit big though, but I think the features more than offset that - especially the close focusing ability with the bellows and the top-notch glass.
There are also the Pentax 6x7 cameras - aside from the little quirks that they have, they are just about as seamless a transition to MF from 35mm as you can ask for - they look, feel and work exactly like a 35mm SLR... on steoroids.
Another budget idea would be a Kiev 88 - its essentially a Russian Hassy knock off (I believe there is even a high degree of parts interchangeability), and from what I understand, the newer ones that are officially imported come with warranties and generally seem to enjoy a pretty good reputation. They are a fair bit smaller than a RB67, and also quite flexible as they are a full system with various lenses, finders, etc.
Personally, the RB 67 is my choice - but I would strongly suggest getting your hands on one - literally - just to see if its not to bulky for you. The only draw back I can see is that the 6x7 format will give you 10 frames from a roll of 120 - it is a bit of an adjustment for someone used to 36 frames on 135. But, then again, so is 12 frames of 6x6.
Best of luck - its kind of hard to go wrong, there is a lot of quality stuff at very decent prices - all of it blowing 35mm out of the water in so many ways (keep in mind, I am an avid 35mm user, so this is no knock on the format, there is simply... only so much to play with!).

Peter.

 

[AeisLugh]

You would be hard pressed to get more for your money than a Mamiya RB67 - a truly professional system that you can grow with, that I have seen go for as little as $200 + with one lens, one back, and a basic waist level finder. It is a little bit big though, but I think the features more than offset that - especially the close focusing ability with the bellows and the top-notch glass.
There are also the Pentax 6x7 cameras - aside from the little quirks that they have, they are just about as seamless a transition to MF from 35mm as you can ask for - they look, feel and work exactly like a 35mm SLR... on steoroids.
Another budget idea would be a Kiev 88 - its essentially a Russian Hassy knock off (I believe there is even a high degree of parts interchangeability), and from what I understand, the newer ones that are officially imported come with warranties and generally seem to enjoy a pretty good reputation. They are a fair bit smaller than a RB67, and also quite flexible as they are a full system with various lenses, finders, etc.
Personally, the RB 67 is my choice - but I would strongly suggest getting your hands on one - literally - just to see if its not to bulky for you. The only draw back I can see is that the 6x7 format will give you 10 frames from a roll of 120 - it is a bit of an adjustment for someone used to 36 frames on 135. But, then again, so is 12 frames of 6x6.
Best of luck - its kind of hard to go wrong, there is a lot of quality stuff at very decent prices - all of it blowing 35mm out of the water in so many ways (keep in mind, I am an avid 35mm user, so this is no knock on the format, there is simply... only so much to play with!).

Peter.

LoL, yeah, that's the biggest difference I've noticed is the change in frames per roll. I'd definitely be keeping my XG-9 around for more casual shooting, and using the MF for more carefully laid out shoots. Unless, of course, I get good enough to sell some of my photos to pay for the film, then I might not be so stingy with it lol.

I'm not too worried about bulky, I'm a big guy, and bulky items just means I'm less worried about breaking them accidentally. The RB67's look to be about on par at keh.com with the bronicas I was looking at, so I might look into them as well. Hell, who knows, I might just buy both, so my wife will have one to play with lol

 

[naturephoto1]

LoL, yeah, that's the biggest difference I've noticed is the change in frames per roll. I'd definitely be keeping my XG-9 around for more casual shooting, and using the MF for more carefully laid out shoots. Unless, of course, I get good enough to sell some of my photos to pay for the film, then I might not be so stingy with it lol.

I'm not too worried about bulky, I'm a big guy, and bulky items just means I'm less worried about breaking them accidentally. The RB67's look to be about on par at keh.com with the bronicas I was looking at, so I might look into them as well. Hell, who knows, I might just buy both, so my wife will have one to play with lol

Well if you are considering the 6x7 cameras, Mamiya offers 3, Pentax old and new, and Bronica offers 1 . Based on our discussion earlier, I would venture as beautiful and light, and spectacular optics that would want to stay away from the Mamiya 7/7II. Besides the Mamiya RB67 which is the mechanical and less expensive of the big Mamiya 6x7 SLRs, there is also the more expensive electronic RZ67 to consider.

Mentioned in passing so far the Pentax 6x7 (the older and the newer II) which are much like a great big 35mm SLR on Steroids.

The big brother of the Bronica ETRs and the SQ (6x6) is the GS1. The GS1 is another electronic camera to also consider.

Rich

 

[AeisLugh]

Well if you are considering the 6x7 cameras, Mamiya offers 3, Pentax old and new, and Bronica offers 1 . Based on our discussion earlier, I would venture as beautiful and light, and spectacular optics that would want to stay away from the Mamiya 7/7II. Besides the Mamiya RB67 which is the mechanical and less expensive of the big Mamiya 6x7 SLRs, there is also the more expensive electronic RZ67 to consider.

Mentioned in passing so far the Pentax 6x7 (the older and the newer II) which are much like a great big 35mm SLR on Steroids.

The big brother of the Bronica ETRs and the SQ (6x6) is the GS1. The GS1 is another electronic camera to also consider.

Rich

I'm not hung up on any one negative size at the moment, since I've never actually used an MF camera, and I don't know anyone personally (at least not in my area) that has one. If I knew someone locally who'd let me borrow theirs for a day and shoot a roll or two, trust me, I'd be doing that before buying one. So right now, I'm just exploring the different types, and looking for something inexpensive yet dependable. both the ETRS and the RB67 are really looking attractive to me right now though.

Of course, I seem to remember someone saying that KEH won't ship to canada, which means if I buy from them, i'll have to do a workaround and have them ship it to my friend in Iowa for me to pick up the next time I go for a visit (which will only be a couple months I think)

 

[DBP]

One thing to look at while deciding is the cost of the lenses you are likely to use. Some of the more unusual focal lengths can be pretty expensive. Frankly, the availability of decent wide angle lenses at low prices (specifically the 30mm Arsat and the 50mm Flektogon) was what pulled me to the Kiev 60 a few years back, but the Bronicas were much pricier then, not the amazing deals they are now. And once I had a set of lenses, upgrading to a Kiev (Arax) 88CM was a natural next step.

BTW, as far as interchangeability goes, the finders are interchangeable between Hasselblads and Kiev 88s. The backs that don't link to the camera, like a polaroid back, also are interchangeable. I personally wouldn't take a chance with rollfilm backs.

 

[AeisLugh]

Ack, I just realized something. with most of these MF cameras, there isn't a build in metering system, is there? I'll have to buy and learn how to use some kind of external light meter?

 

[AeisLugh]

One thing to look at while deciding is the cost of the lenses you are likely to use. Some of the more unusual focal lengths can be pretty expensive. Frankly, the availability of decent wide angle lenses at low prices (specifically the 30mm Arsat and the 50mm Flektogon) was what pulled me to the Kiev 60 a few years back, but the Bronicas were much pricier then, not the amazing deals they are now. And once I had a set of lenses, upgrading to a Kiev (Arax) 88CM was a natural next step.

BTW, as far as interchangeability goes, the finders are interchangeable between Hasselblads and Kiev 88s. The backs that don't link to the camera, like a polaroid back, also are interchangeable. I personally wouldn't take a chance with rollfilm backs.

well, I've never really played around too much with different sized lenses. I've only got two for my xg-9, a 50mm and a 135mm. I've found they've been more than enough for what I've been doing. Granted, who knows where I'll go in the future when it comes to lenses, so I guess I should look at the prices of the extra bits and pieces for the camera eh?

 

[Nick Zentena]

Of course, I seem to remember someone saying that KEH won't ship to canada, which means if I buy from them, i'll have to do a workaround and have them ship it to my friend in Iowa for me to pick up the next time I go for a visit (which will only be a couple months I think)

They ship to Canada. Either UPS or FedEx. Your choice of next day or 2nd day. It's only big bulky things that cause problems. But something like a camera won't be an issue.

The issue with a lot of the choices is the cheaper ones tend to be older. Buying later models tends to raise the price. So decide which model you want and then check prices. Most of the cameras have had changes over the years. In many cases the newer models have added features.

 

[DBP]

Yes, but those can be really cheap.

 

[Nick Zentena]

Ack, I just realized something. with most of these MF cameras, there isn't a build in metering system, is there? I'll have to buy and learn how to use some kind of external light meter?

Most don't have a meter. A system type camera might let you add a metering prism but it raises the cost. Often quite a bit. The Pentax 645s all have built in meters if that matters.

 

[naturephoto1]

Most don't have a meter. A system type camera might let you add a metering prism but it raises the cost. Often quite a bit. The Pentax 645s all have built in meters if that matters.

But most (or at least many) offer a metering head, though it is a more expensive option.

Rich

 

[DBP]

well, I've never really played around too much with different sized lenses. I've only got two for my xg-9, a 50mm and a 135mm. I've found they've been more than enough for what I've been doing. Granted, who knows where I'll go in the future when it comes to lenses, so I guess I should look at the prices of the extra bits and pieces for the camera eh?

If you haven't felt the need to do really wide angle stuff, don't worry too much. The normal lens in MF is around 75mm-90, depending on the format, and a good portrait lens length is 150mm-250mm. You should be able to find good buys in both. The 'bargain' grade at KEH is much better than you would expect.

As for the meter, there is always your Minolta. I often carry my Nikon FM-10 as a semi spot meter when shooting LF.

 

[DBP]

Yes, but those can be really cheap.

meters, that is.

 

[AeisLugh]

well, built in metering, while it's what I'm used to, it's not a BIG deal. After all, I'm going to be looking at picking up lighting kits too very soon, so a lightmeter/flashmeter would become very handy to have around then anyway. If I go MF before getting the lighting stuff, it just means I'll have an even bigger reason to buy a lightmeter.

If KEH will ship to canada, then that's even better. Of course, the shipping is bound to be expensive, but I guess some things are worth it. I'll be even more worth it once I really start working doing my own prints. I can just imagine that the MF negatives will be so much nicer to work with then 35mm

 

[AeisLugh]

If you haven't felt the need to do really wide angle stuff, don't worry too much. The normal lens in MF is around 75mm-90, depending on the format, and a good portrait lens length is 150mm-250mm. You should be able to find good buys in both. The 'bargain' grade at KEH is much better than you would expect.

As for the meter, there is always your Minolta. I often carry my Nikon FM-10 as a semi spot meter when shooting LF.

Nope, I've never really had a need for anything REALLY wide angle. the 50mm on my minolta has been more than enough for wide angle stuff. Hell, I hardly ever even use the 135mm, unless I'm walking through the woods expecting to see wildlife and want a closer shot without disturbing the animal. (I learned a couple weeks ago to ALWAYS put my 135mm onto the camera BEFORE entering the woods. I missed a fabulous shot of a deer because I couldn't get my camera out and lens changed before she ran off into the bushes).

and you're right, I never thought of that! I'll probably end up lugging the Minolta with me on photo outings anyway, I can just use the built in meter on IT. Thanks, that'll save me some money, though I'll still want a lightmeter eventually

 

[DBP]

For outdoor work, I also find the Mk I eyeball a good meter, and free!