methods for more contrast???

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Q.G.

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Who are "they"?

Mark, you say that "underexpose and overdevelop" is a "generalization", "dogma" even.
Then go on to underpin that by saying that just overdeveloping will get you a bit more contrast.
Next you say you will get round the density problem (you call it overexposure) by tweaking the exposure.

You try to get out of that circle by claiming that exposing less is not the same as underexposing.
It may appear to you that you are doing something else but underexpose and then overdevelop, but you are not, are you?
You may not like the inevitability of that "generalized" "dogma". But even semantics can't help you find a way to avoid it.

So many of your posts trying to refute the "underexpose - overdevelop" thing, ending up showing that that is something you do too...
:wink:
 

markbarendt

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You try to get out of that circle by claiming that exposing less is not the same as underexposing.

Exactly Q.G. unless we define the starting point we don't know and you have not defined a starting point for making that decision.

I'm judging under/over/on exposure from my tested speed for a specific film in the process that I will be using. I'm matching my judgment to the film's curve and speed point.

I didn't just pull this thought out of thin air either.

Kodak (among others) taught it to me. This excerpt is from Kodak's F-4016 technical pubulication.

EXPOSURE
KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX P3200 Film is specially designed to be used as a multi-speed film. The speed you use depends on your application; make tests to determine the appropriate speed.
The nominal speed is EI 1000 when the film is processed in KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX Developer or KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX RS Developer and Replenisher, or
EI 800 when it is processed in other Kodak black-and-white developers. It was determined in a manner published in ISO standards. For ease in calculating
exposure and for consistency with the commonly used scale of film-speed numbers, the nominal speed has been rounded to EI 800.
Kodak even rounds by a 1/3 here.

So is shooting P3200 at 1000 underexposure? At 800 an overexposure?

Matching the SBR to the film's response is an idea I got from Ansel Adams by reading "The Negative".

Ansel shot his films at tested speeds adjusted for his development choices, his tested speed for rolls of Tri-X was 200. Is 200 on Tri-X an overexposure? Would Ansel have considered shooting his Tri-X at 400 an underexposure?

I may not be expressing the idea perfectly, but I'm not using smoke and mirrors either.

I'm not smart enough to make this stuff up by myself. :smile:
 
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stradibarrius

stradibarrius

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The answers given in this have great information. Some of them have so much that it takes several readings and thought processing time to try to understand what is being said.
Would defining , for the sake of this discussion, "normal" exposure as being box speed??? If you have worked with a film/developer combo enough to establish your "normal" it becomes difficult for some of us less experienced to follow the answers given.
In conjunction with this question/thread I have been thin king about the "book" definition of pushing and pulling, and it seems to be the same as over and under exposure???
If I am shooting Tri-x 400 at 800 then by the accepted "book" definition I have pushed/underexposed the film. If I shoot it at 200 I have pulled the film back and over exposed it by increasing the time the amount of light that strikes the film surface?

Sometimes...I have learned enough to be dangerous and ask a question that the answer leads to more questions. The answer is like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hose!
 

markbarendt

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In my mind, underexposure implies a problem; not giving the film enough light to make the image I want.

If I get one seriously underexposed frame on a roll of film, it's trash.
 

Gerald C Koch

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No disrespect intended but I must say to Mark and the rest -- please first read Ansel Adams "The Negative" and then perhaps one or two of the Zone System books. All questions and speculation should then be answered. This thread is just spinning in circles.
 

Q.G.

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Exactly Q.G. unless we define the starting point we don't know and you have not defined a starting point for making that decision. [...]

Since you demand to have the obvious spelled out: the starting point is how we would expose the film if we would not decide to use underexposure and overdevelopment to boost contrast.
:sleeping:
 

Q.G.

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In my mind, underexposure implies a problem; not giving the film enough light to make the image I want.

If I get one seriously underexposed frame on a roll of film, it's trash.

Then this is your opportunity to learn how problems can be turned into solutions!
Now if you would overdevelop those frames you know you underexposed, you would get frames that look good and provide the increase in contrast we're after!
:munch:
 

Vaughn

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...If I get one seriously underexposed frame on a roll of film, it's trash.

Instead of trash, I call them spacers for the good negs! :wink:

(or "Frisbees" if they are 8x10 negs)

Vaughn
 

2F/2F

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Would defining , for the sake of this discussion, "normal" exposure as being box speed???

This is a can of worms, to be sure!

"Normal exposure" would be made at box speed if you had previously determined that box speed works for you, generally.

It would be made at something other than box speed if you had previously determined that for some reason box speed does not result in proper exposures, by whatever criteria you have personally decided upon for defining a proper exposure.

I would say that with proper incident metering, box speed should result in proper-enough exposures for the mid tones (while the SBR as captured with that exposure will determine the low and high tones), even with the normal variation between light meters and shutters caused by different designs and the different amounts "slop" that can develop in these items over time and use. This is what box speeds mean, really: Most people can use this number as an EI to get good exposures under most conditions.

Using an in-camera light meter is a different story! I would not even attempt to judge my film rating based on results from a roll shot under normal conditions (i.e. not test shots) with a reflected light meter that reads through the camera lens (with the possible exception of an in-camera spot meter used for precise tonal placement). There is no reason exposure should change unless the light changes, yet these meters will tell you to change exposure for different subjects, even in the same light. They only lead to the best exposure results if everything in the metered area - metering pattern and weighting considered - averages out to a middle grey tonality, and then the lens is opened up an additional half stop on top of it. IME, it is practically never that things in a composition average out to middle grey; they end up within a certain range, usually, but this range probably extends a stop or two on either side of middle grey. In other words, IME, it is "normal" for exposures made with a directly-read in-camera reflected meter to be anywhere from two stops under to two stops over (including "perfect" from time to time).

I think that 90% of the confusion over box speeds and EIs and "normal" this and "normal" that, and such would be eliminated if people simply threw out the batteries for their cameras' meters, or learned to ignore the meters, and properly used an incident light meter. IMHO, no item has done more to confuse the understanding of ASA, ISO/DIN, EI, and exposure in general than the widespread acceptance and use of the in-camera reflected light meter.

For people who are fine with simply passable results a passable amount of the time, box speed and directly-read in-camera meters usually get the job done just fine, which is what the ASA and ISO/DIN are supposed to be good for. However, these people are probably not the types who will critically judge exposure and spend a lot of time trying to get it such that printing becomes more controllable.

I can surely understand the appeal of this certain degree of technical abandon. Personally, I screwed around with all this EI junk and the Zone Zyztem for years before it just got to be a chore in my general shooting situations. I now prefer box speed and an incident meter, and I like my results just fine...and previously learning expansion and contraction and abnormal exposure techniques allows me to know when to vary from the norm. It is all about having an eye for SBR and knowing how your various processes and materials will interpret that.

I still use custom EIs and tonal placement for many things, but it is no longer my standard way of working.

I am happy with results using both methods. My subject and "approach" determine which methods I use.

Ideally, I use both in a perfect world...and sometimes the world is perfect, though rarely.
 
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markbarendt

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Then this is your opportunity to learn how problems can be turned into solutions!
Now if you would overdevelop those frames you know you underexposed, you would get frames that look good and provide the increase in contrast we're after!
:munch:

So if I already planned +2, and I'm under two full stops , and it's in the middle of the roll... :laugh:
 

Q.G.

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So if I already planned +2, and I'm under two full stops , and it's in the middle of the roll... :laugh:

If you already planned +2, you already made the decision to deviate from +/- 0.
So there's your "definition".

If you plan to do a +2 frame in the middle of a roll... wouldn't you agree that if someone does that, he needs to stop what he is doing and consider whether he is clever enough to be doing what he is doing? I'm sure you do!
:wink:
 

markbarendt

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If you already planned +2, you already made the decision to deviate from +/- 0.
So there's your "definition".

No, it means I am making the decision to use a different "characteristic curve" for the shots in question.

In this sense, choosing + or - development can be thought of like changing from one film to another.

I could just as easily switch from Delta 400, to Delta 100 or P3200 to better match the SBR I want. All I'm really after is a curve that matches the scene.

Each curve, regardless of whether I decide to switch films or switch development processes, has it's own definable characteristics; it's own speed point that I can set my meter to.

If you plan to do a +2 frame in the middle of a roll... wouldn't you agree that if someone does that, he needs to stop what he is doing and consider whether he is clever enough to be doing what he is doing? I'm sure you do!
:wink:

There are times when I'm not very clever and I lose a frame or two.
 

markbarendt

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It could also be an acceptable compromise.

Absolutely Anon.

We each get to decide what's acceptable.

Knowing where you stand when you make that compromise is important.
 

markbarendt

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No disrespect intended but I must say to Mark and the rest -- please first read Ansel Adams "The Negative" and then perhaps one or two of the Zone System books. All questions and speculation should then be answered. This thread is just spinning in circles.

Done that, very helpful.
 

Q.G.

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No, it means I am making the decision to use a different "characteristic curve" for the shots in question.

No. That would be what you are doing when other people say "boost the contrast by underexposing and overdeveloping".

Your "+2" is your way of not stating the obvious (the thing you wanted to have spelled out), i.e. that you deviate from what you would do if you would not deviate from what you would do if [etc.].
:wink:
 

markbarendt

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I think the difference between planned and accidental is getting confused here.

If I pick a specific film and development process combo, a specific curve to match the SBR, before the shot and the tones happen to fall right where I wanted them on the developed film, I have exposed properly.

If I screw up, which happens, and the tones fall too low on the curve and I've lost details that I wanted on film, by my definition, I've underexposed and created some trash.
 

Q.G.

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I think the difference between planned and accidental is getting confused here.

If I pick a specific film and development process combo, a specific curve to match the SBR, before the shot and the tones happen to fall right where I wanted them on the developed film, I have exposed properly.

If I screw up, which happens, and the tones fall too low on the curve and I've lost details that I wanted on film, by my definition, I've underexposed and created some trash.

Yes. If we screw up, we create trash.

But Mark, this thread is about ways to deliberately alter contrast.
None of the methods mentioned, including the one you are arguing against, is accidental.

So you were addressing what aspect of any of the methods mentioned exactly?
 

Monophoto

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Filtration (typically, yellow, orange or red).

Increased film development time or higher temperature (but be careful - these can also increase grain).

Higher contrast filter when printing (or more contrasty paper if you are using the graded variety)

Longer print development time.

Toning the print in selenium.
 

Monophoto

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Intensify my negatives in Selenium???? Do I take my negative and soak it in selenium, or add a selenium step to the processing procedure?

Exactly. But you have to use a much stronger toner than you would use in toning prints - negative intensification typically calls for a 1:4 dilution of KRST, whereas print toning is anywhere from 1:9 to 1:32. First, wet the negatives (if they are dry), and then soak them in a tray of toner. The changes are subtle - so its best to experiment with various times. After intensification, you must thoroughly wash the negatives (KRST contains fixer), rinse in PhotoFlo or equivalent and then dry them.

You can also intensify your negatives using chromium. Kodak used to sell a kit for this, but it's pretty scarce now. Chromium has environmental issues.

And if you are truly adventuresome, you can intensify in mercury. Mercury intensification can be dangerous to the neurological system - probably best to stay away from this one.
 

2F/2F

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Filtration in camera does not change the contrast of the emulsion. It changes the tones of objects within the shot, selectively, based on their colors. Therefore, you can use them to change the contrast between specific objects that appear in the shot, but you cannot use them to create an overall change in contrast.
 
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Q.G.

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Filtration changes how the image looks. So does the exposure and processing stuff.
 

fschifano

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Of course it does, but I think what 2F/2F is saying is that on camera filtration doesn't change the slope of the film's characteristic curve, and that's an important distinction to point out. Photograph a monochrome step wedge through red, yellow and orange filters onto a panchromatic film, and (given the same exposure to place the middle value at the same point on the curve) the results will be very close to identical.
 
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Filtration in camera does not change the contrast of the emulsion. It changes the tones of objects within the shot, selectively, based on their colors. Therefore, you can use them to change the contrast between specific objects that appear in the shot, but you cannot use them to create an overall change in contrast.

Actually, different wavelengths do change the contrast somewhat. It's a little known phenomenon called the Gamma-Lambda Effect. Shorter wavelengths (blue) produce lower contrast. Wavelengths toward the center (green) increase contrast, and longer wavelengths (red) have more of a neutral affect.

Of course, Gamma-Lambda Effect isn't the reason we use color filters when shooting B&W.
 
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