Metals used in LF cameras

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Curt

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I'd like a small mill but I'd like a small lathe too, what the hell, I'd like a big mill and I'd like a big lathe. I just don't have the room for all of what I want and I don't have an unlimited bank account either. I've been making due with what I have but a mill or lathe or mill/lathe combination would be great.

For knobs and the like a lathe is the ticket but for slots the mill is the one. Are the mini lathes any good? What's the precision of them? What's a good mini mill for making slots and odd shaped pieces? How can I anodize aluminum or nickle plate brass at home with a decent finish?


Curt
 

Curt

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Did you know that those Stainless Steel back springs on the Deardorff 8X10 are actually Nickle plated Brass?
 

Curt

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Mark Fisher

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http://www.precisionsteel.com/copper-base-alloys/brass-strip/spring-temper

Does anyone know how to temper Brass at home for back springs or is the brass tempered in manufacturer and not possible at home. I know that stainless steel can be tempered at home, JB Harlin did his at home in his shop.

I believe that, unlike steel or aluminum, brass is not heat treated to get strength. It is work hardened by rolling it between rollers. Also, unusually tempering refers to a process after initial heat treating to reduce its strength and increase its ductility. Steel right after quenching from heat treat can be really brittle and needs to be "tempered back". Here is a nice set of definitions of heat treating terms and a bit about specific procedures
 

eclarke

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I use modern Arcas and several of the parts are die-cast aluminum. I thought it would be great for then to use die cast magnesium, I designed die-cast parts for archery bows many years ago and the weight savings would be pretty good...EC
 
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nick mulder

nick mulder

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Are the mini lathes any good? What's the precision of them? What's a good mini mill for making slots and odd shaped pieces? How can I anodize aluminum or nickle plate brass at home with a decent finish?
Curt

My Emco Unimat 3 is micro sized indeed, you could pretty much take it with you in a backpack or tool kit - pretty good Austrian manufacturing means with patience you can turn out some nice stuff - but larger sized work is slooooooow going....

Seriously consider a mill/drill with a rotary table - you can do many lathe style operations that way... There is the scary but doable option of putting your suitably dimensioned work in a mill collet (not a chuck, they don't support lateral loads well) then spinning it that way with your cutter on the mill bed - compound angles are a headscratcher and also have a good, long and hard think about the angle your cutter will end up with respect to the motion of the work however - ok, actually forget everything I just said, dont do it ! (but yeh, um, lets just say, 'its been done' :wink::rolleyes:smile:
 

Curt

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Thanks Mark for the information, it's been a long time since I've thought about metallurgy.

Nick, I'm going to look at some equipment before deciding. I might start with a lathe and go from there. The small lathes and mills are right sized for camera knobs and parts.
 

lxdude

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I use modern Arcas and several of the parts are die-cast aluminum. I thought it would be great for then to use die cast magnesium, I designed die-cast parts for archery bows many years ago and the weight savings would be pretty good...EC
Magnesium would be good for lightness but...:surprised:
Machining magnesium must be done done with much caution. It ignites easily and the danger increases with smaller chips. It can be minimized by having a constant full flood of water-based coolant.

EDIT: The water based coolant is used to reduce danger of ignition only. Magnesium continues to burn under water and most fire extinguishers won't kill it.
 
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Curt

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Magnesium in my shop would cause the biggest fire the city has ever seen. Is it possible to do die cast aluminum at home with any precision? In college I worked at the Pacific Car and Foundry and know how the process works for steel, molds and mold makers, huge metal pours and machining, lots of machining. Now a smaller part for a camera wouldn't be as massive in weight and size but the precision is the same, very tight tolerances. It's intriguing though, do I feel the heat of the foundry again?

I have a 10" cabinet table saw that I have dedicated to the cutting of metal. It has a non ferrous metal cutting blade in it. With the proper clamping and safety in mind I've been able to cut aluminum and brass with it. If I clamp a piece of aluminum strip and raise the blade I can cut a very neat slot in the metal. It's good for cutting aluminum sheets down for lens boards. I can even cut dado's for the light trap. That's one of my tools for metalworking, the others are a drill press, sanders, buffers, and hand tools. A 12" disk stationary sander is great too for contours and edge cleanup. I get the stick on disks from Harbour Freight. That's for outside radius, for smaller ones I use a disk drum in the drill press.
 

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nick mulder

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Interesting - a fully metal tailboard ...

Building a tailboard myself just now as high magnification/close focus on longer lenses are easier to achieve.

Hmmm, could have been one of the first questions but what are the methods for 'going around corners' with metal ? Pretty much like that S shape on the Kodak Commercial that the rear standard sits on and is guided by the middle channel of the board,

- buying the extrusion in the first place and working with that - design limited by profile availability and cost
- milling the profile out of solid stock or cast - wasteful, tiresome, a lot of work in finish
- bending it - you need the right gear to really do it correctly
- fastening it - the profile needs to be thick enough to tap + bolt access issues
- weld/glue etc... - potentially messy, finishing issues - proper gear and expertise

or ??

At the moment I'm leaning towards fastening and working with established profiles and some milled doohickeys or the metal simply inlayed into wood but sooner or later want to learn proper bending technique (those big magnetic bending things) and welding/soldering which seems like a complete black art to me at the moment (even after having done some mig and stick welding and some soldering a long time ago).

What is the best for short or one run work ?
 

lxdude

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What is the best for short or one run work ?

Wood. Unless you have already have the equipment and expertise in working with metal, make it from wood. Metal fab is not as easy as it looks. 9/10ths is setup.
 
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nick mulder

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Wood. Unless you have already have the equipment and expertise in working with metal, make it from wood. Metal fab is not as easy as it looks. 9/10ths is setup.

Hi, did you read my full post ?

I have a habit of typing out of sequence but I was referring to how best to work metal into profiles. I don't think wood would work at all for what I was talking about, pesky grain, dimensional conflict issues etc... and it doesn't take kindly to welding either

But yes, out of all the things I could and should have learned by now with metal work is that without proper set up your work will be next to useless (and likely dangerous) ...

This thread is part of a larger scheme of mine to gain that expertise you mention. I'm at the point where the only thing left is to start really working with it
 

Steve Smith

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Machining magnesium must be done done with much caution. It ignites easily

Indeed it does. And it used to annoy my workshop manager when I used to set fire to it!


Steve.
 

lxdude

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Magnesium in my shop would cause the biggest fire the city has ever seen. Is it possible to do die cast aluminum at home with any precision? In college I worked at the Pacific Car and Foundry and know how the process works for steel, molds and mold makers, huge metal pours and machining, lots of machining. Now a smaller part for a camera wouldn't be as massive in weight and size but the precision is the same, very tight tolerances. It's intriguing though, do I feel the heat of the foundry again?

Impractical. To die cast you first must make a die. Remember, some of the most highly skilled machinists are tool and die makers. I was for a time a moldmaker making aluminum molds for plastic injection. That's easy compared to making a steel mold for die casting. Precision castings are not precise compared to machined parts. They are cast oversize to allow for cooling shrinkage and have draft angles to allow the die to release the part.

There's nothing to be gained by casting your own aluminum parts. You'd have to get them heat treated to strengthen and stress relieve them which often distorts their dimensions, so finish machining has to be done after.

Make them out of readily available stock of the proper alloy and temper. The different shapes and sizes allow selection of materials which will minimize machining.
 

lxdude

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Hi, did you read my full post ?

I have a habit of typing out of sequence but I was referring to how best to work metal into profiles. I don't think wood would work at all for what I was talking about, pesky grain, dimensional conflict issues etc... and it doesn't take kindly to welding either

But yes, out of all the things I could and should have learned by now with metal work is that without proper set up your work will be next to useless (and likely dangerous) ...

This thread is part of a larger scheme of mine to gain that expertise you mention. I'm at the point where the only thing left is to start really working with it

Yes I did read your entire post and saw the part about metal inlayed into wood. That's what I recommended you start with.

It's important to not take on too much at once. Otherwise a project stops being fun. Build on experience. Generally, fabricating from metal is harder than it looks. It depends, though. With easy to work material usually much can be done with simple tools. I've made complex brackets with multi angle bends out of mild steel by using a vise, a brass hammer, an electric drill and a file. And paint.

Softer, easy to work materials like brass and aluminum are the place to start. If you're working with aluminum it's soft enough that careful hand work can often bring a high level of precision. A file used carefully can, with careful technique, make perfect outside radii. By using a technique called draw filing it can produce very flat surfaces. Silicon carbide paper on a really flat piece of plate can also be used to make very flat and true surfaces. Wrapped around a piece of stock it can smooth and bring to size complex shapes.

It takes patience and a certain knack. But it allows you to compensate for machine limitations like not enough precision or a lack of rigidity, and sometimes for not having a machine. If you do much hand work you will be astonished at how precise you can become. A lot of guys hate it because they want to go fast, but I enjoyed it. One place I worked, because of my ability to do precise hand work (often to rework a bad part) I got the nickname "Deadeye". It was nice to have a non-insulting nickname for once.:D

Precision layout, where dimensions are scribed onto the workpiece, will help big time. Work to the line and you will be close. Holes to be drilled can be center punched on the layout and a good drill press will give the needed precision. If you're careful enough and good enough, even a hand electric drill can be used for through holes.

Weld if you want, but you should be able to avoid it if you'd rather not. Choose your alloy carefully, as many don't weld while others are pretty easy with tig or mig. There's a reason 6061 is used so extensively. It's good all around. The heat of welding does anneal it though, so it will lose strength near welds. It will recover some of its former strength and hardness with time. 7200 is nice to weld, because it recovers its strength after welding.

About obtaining material: many metal distributors will sell to the public. They often have odds and ends, short pieces etc. from fab jobs. They usually sell it by the pound, not units like length or area.
 

eclarke

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Indeed it does. And it used to annoy my workshop manager when I used to set fire to it!


Steve.

Used to grind the parting lines off mag castings and once in a while there was a fire in the dust collector. The first time, we put some water on it, don't try that!!..EC
 

alanrockwood

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...Are the mini lathes any good? ...
Curt

Here is a good site on setting up and using a mini lathe.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/

Here is the mini mill section of the same web site.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/main/mini-mill.htm

Here is a site that has a very extensive stock or parts and accessories for these machines.

http://littlemachineshop.com/info/minimill.php

These web sites are all concerned with the Chinese lathes and mills.

It is possible to do very good work with these machines, but what they say is that when you buy one you should think of it more as a kit than a finished product. The idea is that you tune it and adjust it according to the instructions in these web sites and then it is capable of good work.

Other well known makers of small machine shop equipment include Sherline and Taig. These might be better for out of the box use, but they are more expensive, and I don't think they are necessarily better than the Chinese machines once the Chinese machines have been tuned up.
 

Curt

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Yes, I won't be setting up a foundry, it's just not practical or needed by me anyway. I've been to the web sites there Alan, there is a lot of good information. The one thing I learned about these products and the Chinese specifically is they need to be set up carefully and adjusted correctly, then they can do some outstanding work.
 
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