medium format SLR help needed

Autonerd said:

Not trying to be argumentative here, I'm genuinely curious -- how do you see the RB67 as more versatile than the C330?

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Let's start with the film backs: C330 is 6x6 and, well, 6x6. You can load 35mm, as with any other 120 camera, but as with almost any other, that's a kludge. My RB67 shoots 6x7 and 6x4.5 with Mamiya backs, and 6x6 with a Graflex 22 mounted. I can also (if there were enough film choices to bother) mount a 2x3 Grafmatic on the Graflok/Universal back (I'd get about 80-90% coverage of the film due to internal vignetting). With very minor modification (a strip of tape) I can load 35mm in a 220 back and actually use the lever advance and frame counter, and get 15 or so images on a 36 exposure roll, with reliable frame spacing (could be 17 if I put a leader on the film; still working on how to be able to change that film in the field without a dark bag). If peel-apart instant film were still made, I could put a Polaroid back on the RB67 and have prints in about a minute. With money and good timing (the equipment sells out rapidly when it comes up), I can do the same for Instax Square.

Wider range of lenses (37mm fisheye, 50, 65, 90, 127, 180, 250, 360, and 500 mm, plus the 150mm soft focus; 45mm and 82mm macro tubes, and 2x teleconverters from various third parties -- I wouldn't bother for wildlife). No parallax to correct when focusing at portrait distance (or much, much closer) -- and no-extras macro with a 90mm or shorter lens. With the metered chimney, TTL metering auto-corrects for bellows factor, and it's a fairly small spot.

And even though the shutters are in the lens, I can mount a pinhole body cap and use the safety shutter behind the mirror for the long exposures of pinhole.

Donald Qualls said:

Let's start with the film backs.

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Interesting! Thank you for explaining.

I'm still thinking that a Bronica SQ is 95% of the camera a Hasselblad is, at about 60% of the price. Yes, it needs a battery, yes the electronics can need cleaning, but it's a solid little camera with good lenses, and if you want 100% mechanical, the S2A seems to be a solid performer as well.

Donald forgot the sheet film back for the C330.
I believe the 127mm lens is the smallest and lightest RB67 lens, but the differences aren't meaningful.
If you want relatively small and light, consider cameras with moderate wide angle, standard and moderate telephoto lenses. The C330 wins the three lens competition against everything but the C220.
All that being said, the 6 pound RB67 doesn't fall out of contention because of its weight or size, it falls out of contention because it just isn't well suited for photographing fast moving wildlife.
An RB67 used handheld is quite appropriate for photos of people.
I enjoyed using my RB67 handheld or with a monopod, but the longest lens I used was a 180mm, and I didn't use that one often.
It was very impressive looking though when I used the180mm lens with the 2x teleconverter.

I may have missed it but what focal lengths are you planning to use? I have used a fair few medium format cameras. Here's my take on some of the mechanical ones I have used:

Hasselblad: I have used the 501 and 500ELX (motorised). I have used them with a PM90 prism, my preferred way of shooting them. I also have used lenses from 50 to 250mm. You mentioned wildlife so my guess is you'll need something a bit longer than the standard lens. Using the 180 and 250 on the blad handheld with a prism is just not comfortable. The whole rig is very front heavy. Also, you could get a grip but the grip is very unergonomic for use with a 90 degree prism. In fact it is unergonomic for anything.

RB67: I had a ProSD kit and had the 65, 90, 127 and 250 lenses (all KL). I really regret selling it. Yes it weighs a ton. But, with a prism and the rotating grip it is far more comfortable to handhold. It also has a much better damped mirror than the blad. I'm sure the usual suspects will "siriously" try to say this is wrong but I know that with a standard lens I can shoot 1/15 (or even 1/8 at a push) on the RB and 1/60 with the blad (1/30 if I'm careful). As said, you can get a lot closer too. Prices have sadly gone up recently but it is still a lot cheaper to build a kit vs the hasselblad. The 250 was quite awkward to use though.

Mamiya C series, you can get a prism for it however I found it quite awkward to use at eye level as it gets front heavy quickly. I never tried the grip though so maybe that helps. It can be handheld to low shutter speeds being a TLR.

I've also owned Bronica ETRS, SQ, Mamiya 6, Hasselblad H and some other stuff that are electronic so I'll leave them for now. The only other camera I really liked was the Pentax 6x7. Sadly mine was unrepairable and never got round to get another one but it is the most 35mm SLR friendly camera, Nick Brandt also makes amazing work with it and some TriX.

However, in general I'd say that medium format is not exactly wildlife friendly, unless you're talking close-ups or landscape/environmental type shots.

Question: what about a Mamiya 645 system? The old Super whatever were all mechanical. Cheap and good.

PS the trick with carrying the RB67 is this: the best way is to have a nice big comfy bag that you can put the camera in, walk around and take it out when you want to shoot. I had an ThinkTank Urban 30 (I think...it has been a while), that would fit the RB and prism and grip, I would slot the camera in, grip up move about then open the flap grab the grip and pull the camera out to shoot. You can walk around holding the camera from the grip too hanging down, that works too. I would not walk around with grip+prism on a neck strap, however a comfy strap and stripped down camera (wlf, no grip, light lens) is no worse or better than a big DSLR rig.

My zorki is around 95% of my Leica iii...
My nikon fm10 is around 95% of my fm2 ..
My Kodak 2d is around 95% of my deardorff...
My meopta axomat is around 95% of my focomat v35
...

film_man said:

Question: what about a Mamiya 645 system? The old Super whatever were all mechanical. Cheap and good.

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I asked about this a while back, and was informed that there is no Mamiya 645 (or any other 645 SLR) that isn't battery dependent. The first M645, had an electronically timed shutter, as did all following versions. It has a good reputation for reliability and durability, none the less, and is for certain much lighter than a similarly equipped RB67, but you're stuck with one format and have to turn the camera on its side to shoot verticals -- which isn't a big deal with a prism, but very annoying with the much lighter waist level finder. The camera is also reputed to be prone to break if you use the motor winder, and gets only 15 frames on 120 (the RB67 645 back gets 16).

ruilourosa said:

My zorki is around 95% of my Leica iii..
My nikon fm10 is around 95% of my fm2 ..
My Kodak 2d is around 95% of my deardorff...
My meopta axomat is around 95% of my focomat v35
...

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I can't believe that a Zorki is 95% of a Leica III...

grat said:

I'm still thinking that a Bronica SQ is 95% of the camera a Hasselblad is, at about 60% of the price. Yes, it needs a battery, yes the electronics can need cleaning, but it's a solid little camera with good lenses, and if you want 100% mechanical, the S2A seems to be a solid performer as well.

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If there was only a way to tell the S2a apart from the somewhat, according to internet not so reliable S2 version..... soo many "mint S2a" when talkign with sellers become "oh its a late model S2...."

It's a slightly heavier-duty gear, as I understand it-- not different materials, as some have claimed, but just a better design.

Still, look for "S2A" after the serial number, or make sure the SN is greater than 150037 (from www.craigcamera.com).

I know for sure that bronica is not 95% hasselblad...

A Bronica is 95% Hasselblad and a Hasselblad is 70% RB67. The Bronica is 85% RB67. All of them are 50% Rollei. So how does that work?

i have most of cameras mentioned, i prefer hasselblad... nowadays i am working more with some pentacon mount cameras and a bunch of strange lenses, with a deardorff and a Canon Demi...
RB and RZ are big and heavy and the lenses are ok...
They are utilitarian and industrial...

Everything on the Mamiya 645 gives ALL versions an electronic shutter, 645 Super and later have an emergency switch that lets the camera have a 1/60 mechanical shutter for a dead battery situation.

And I havent been able to find a Bronica S2a with a S2A in the serial number, or a serial number above 100,000. Methinks its a dead end. Sure an enlarged risk of bad internals, and according to sources MUCH easier to screw up internals, but im interested in reliability

Often, making one criterion an absolute requirement (in this case, all-mechanical) drives the solution to some weird places, especially when the use case is already at the margins of the equipment - wildlife photography with medium format. If you relax that criterion, I would think the Mamiya 645 or Pentax 6x7 (and perhaps the Hasselblad) are considerably superior, in terms of lenses, handling, and functionality. Compared to some of the alternatives that have been mentioned, for ex the Mamiya TLR and RB67 can be wonderful in their realm, but I think they're very unsuited for wildlife photography. Good handling, viewfinder, and portability should be very important, I'd think.

I don't get hung up on the internet lore on the difference between the Bronica S2 and S2A, but it also may not be the best here; prisms are uncommon and it's heavy and quite loud.

I've never used a Pentax 6x7, but I have used the Mamiya 645; it is reliable and the electronics are unlikely to be a point of failure. Just make sure the prism doesn't have a dark band from deteriorating foam. The telephoto lenses are very inexpensive.

I think another important thing to realise is that once you get into MF you will eventually buy and sell and try quite a few of those cameras discussed above. So think of what you are buying now as a starting point.

tballphoto said:

645 Super and later have an emergency switch that lets the camera have a 1/60 mechanical shutter for a dead battery situation.

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Only the 645 Super provides that option. The later versions replace that with a self timer option instead, which has mirror pre-fire - I use the self timer a lot!

film_man said:

I think another important thing to realise is that once you get into MF you will eventually buy and sell and try quite a few of those cameras discussed above. So think of what you are buying now as a starting point.

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If you go directly to the Hasselblad, you will save yourself a lot of trouble since you will not go through a lot of buying and selling. Hasselblad is the goal, not the journey.

tballphoto said:

Everything on the Mamiya 645 gives ALL versions an electronic shutter, 645 Super and later have an emergency switch that lets the camera have a 1/60 mechanical shutter for a dead battery situation.

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I would not shy (and have not shied) away from electronic cameras -- I have found the electronics to be fairly robust, and there is an argument in their favor that their shutters are unlikely to go far out of adjustment. I don't buy into the "Shoots without batteries" arguments -- how hard is it to carry spares?

One Pentax 645 and two Mamiyas 645 pro told me to Stay away from eletronic cameras...

ruilourosa said:

One Pentax 645 and two Mamiyas 645 pro told me to Stay away from eletronic cameras...

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What happened? My Mamiya 7ii and Bronica SQ-B cameras are electronic, although possibly not as fully electronic as a 645 SLR.

Sirius Glass said:

If you go directly to the Hasselblad, you will save yourself a lot of trouble since you will not go through a lot of buying and selling. Hasselblad is the goal, not the journey.

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For some people Hasselblad is a final destination, for others it is merely a stop till they arrive to something else. I'd rather not shoot MF at all if I had to use a Hasselblad.

Tom Kershaw said:

What happened? My Mamiya 7ii and Bronica SQ-B cameras are electronic, although possibly not as fully electronic as a 645 SLR.

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I'd like to know too, solid state electronics can be extremely reliable when quality components are used.
People worry about that mostly because they don't understand how simple and servicable electronics really are, on average.

Shy away if the electronics are Lucas.

got a Mamiya 645 1000s on the way, even has the almost impossible to find eyecup on the prism still.