Mechanical + electronic hybrid shutter

pkr1979 · May 13, 2023

Hi all,

Does anyone know which SLRs are equipped with a mechanical-electro hybrid shutter. As far as I know the FM3a is the only one that offers all shutter speeds with either. In addition there are cameras like the Pentax LX and Canon F-1 which combines them, as far as I know. Is the Nikon FM3a one of a kind in this regard?

Cheers
Peter

Chan Tran · May 13, 2023

pkr1979 said:
Hi all,

Does anyone know which SLRs are equipped with a mechanical-electro hybrid shutter. As far as I know the FM3a is the only one that offers all shutter speeds with either. In addition there are cameras like the Pentax LX and Canon F-1 which combines them, as far as I know. Is the Nikon FM3a one of a kind in this regard?

Cheers
Peter

The Canon EF shutter speed from 1 sec to 8 sec is electronic while from 1/2 sec to 1/1000 sec is mechanical. But no I don't know of any camera with the full range of mechanical shutter speeds as well as full range of electronic shutter speeds. (besides of the FM3a)

pkr1979 · May 13, 2023

Chan Tran said:
The Canon EF shutter speed from 1 sec to 8 sec is electronic while from 1/2 sec to 1/1000 sec is mechanical. But no I don't know of any camera with the full range of mechanical shutter speeds as well as full range of electronic shutter speeds. (besides of the FM3a)

Does the Canon EF have aperture priority?

Chan Tran · May 13, 2023

pkr1979 said:
Does the Canon EF have aperture priority?

No! It has shutter speed priority and so the shutter can be purely mechanical. For long shutter speed the electronic is far more accurate than the mechanical that is why Canon made it that way.

Les Sarile · May 13, 2023

I have the following hybrid cameras . . .

Selection 78 by Les DMess, on Flickr

As far as I know, the Nikon FM3A is the only aperture priority capable SLR that has all shutter speeds available when batteries drain or aperture priority autoexposure system has failed.

The Auto-Reflex is aperture priority and all shutter speeds are accessible without a battery or if the shutter priority autoexposure system has failed as in mine. Are all shutter priority cameras this way then?

I don't have the Pentax ES but it has the same range of shutter speeds available without batteries or again if aperture priority autoexposure system has failed. The ES, ES II, LX and New F-1 all have the same shutter speeds available - B and sync to top speed. In practice, this is actually not too much of an inconvenience compared to the the full hybrid system in the FM3A specially when using most color negatives or b&w films as you can set it on B (bulb) and guess at speeds less than sync while taking advantage of the huge overexposure latitude (up to +8) of those films.

Autonerd · May 13, 2023

Is this an appropriate thread on which to argue against the mechanical-shutter fetish?

Aaron

pkr1979 · May 18, 2023

Autonerd said:
Is this an appropriate thread on which to argue against the mechanical-shutter fetish?

Aaron

Go for it

reddesert · May 18, 2023

Les Sarile said:
The Auto-Reflex is aperture priority and all shutter speeds are accessible without a battery or if the shutter priority autoexposure system has failed as in mine. Are all shutter priority cameras this way then?

I think you mean the Konica Auto-reflex is shutter priority. Most of the Konica Autoreflex series are like this: they are shutter priority auto but the shutter also works at manual speeds without a battery. They are a lot like the shutter priority rangefinders of the 60s-70s (Konica auto S2, Canonet, many others) that offered both shutter priority auto, and no-battery shutter speeds. The electrical system was used to capture/control the aperture, not to control the shutter, so if the battery is dead and the lens is moved off the EE or A setting, the shutter and aperture both work at their manual setting.

However, most other shutter priority SLRs aren't like this - most common example is probably the Canon AE-1, which is entirely battery dependent.

Personally I feel that an entirely hybrid shutter is kind of cool but not really necessary; one can pick either all-mechanical or electronically timed and be happy. In cameras that only use the battery for metering and shutter (not motor drive, flash etc), the battery lasts a long time and it is easy to have a spare. I do like having a single mechanical speed + Bulb as a fallback, like the Nikons that have M90+B.

ant! · May 18, 2023

The Minolta XD/XD7/XD11 has a mechanical "emergency" shutter speed at 1/100, the rest is electronic (shutter or aperature priority or manual)

Chan Tran · May 18, 2023

reddesert said:
I think you mean the Konica Auto-reflex is shutter priority. Most of the Konica Autoreflex series are like this: they are shutter priority auto but the shutter also works at manual speeds without a battery. They are a lot like the shutter priority rangefinders of the 60s-70s (Konica auto S2, Canonet, many others) that offered both shutter priority auto, and no-battery shutter speeds. The electrical system was used to capture/control the aperture, not to control the shutter, so if the battery is dead and the lens is moved off the EE or A setting, the shutter and aperture both work at their manual setting.

However, most other shutter priority SLRs aren't like this - most common example is probably the Canon AE-1, which is entirely battery dependent.

Personally I feel that an entirely hybrid shutter is kind of cool but not really necessary; one can pick either all-mechanical or electronically timed and be happy. In cameras that only use the battery for metering and shutter (not motor drive, flash etc), the battery lasts a long time and it is easy to have a spare. I do like having a single mechanical speed + Bulb as a fallback, like the Nikons that have M90+B.

Canon EF is a shutter priority auto exposure and the shutter is mechanical from 1/2 to 1/1000. The long shutter speeds from 1 to 8 sec is electronic because mechanical shutter isn't very accurate in this range. However the new Canon AE-1 all shutter speeds are electronic and it wouldn't work at any speed if the battery is dead.
Aperture priority auto exposure cameras tend to have 1 mechanical shutter speed and generally at the X sync speed.

xkaes · May 18, 2023

ant! said:
The Minolta XD/XD7/XD11 has a mechanical "emergency" shutter speed at 1/100, the rest is electronic (shutter or aperature priority or manual)

You are referring to the "O" setting. The "B" setting is also available, and completely mechanical, so if you are fast, you can get exposures at 1/8s or longer.

ant! · May 18, 2023

xkaes said:
You are referring to the "O" setting. The "B" setting is also available, and completely mechanical, so if you are fast, you can get exposures at 1/8s or longer.

Yes, you are right, B works as well without battery. I am a handheld person, so not really using B...

Bill Burk · May 18, 2023

The Pentax ES-II has one additional mechanical speed most people don’t know about.

With shutter set to B and using the self-timer… you get a one second exposure.

It’s part of the camera CLA procedure to confirm this is 1 second. So a properly maintained ES-II will give you that.

benjiboy · May 19, 2023

The Canon New F1 has a Titanium horizontal shutter that gives speeds from 8 seconds to 1/60 electronically, and from 1/90 to 1/2000 mechanically even if the battery fails.
With the AE view finder added it gives aperture priority metering , by also adding either the the power winder or the motor drive additionally provides shutter priority AE.

M-88 · May 19, 2023

reddesert said:
Personally I feel that an entirely hybrid shutter is kind of cool but not really necessary;

Redundant indeed. But then again, a lot about FM3a was cool but not really necessary. I think they did it simply because they could. Same with Olympus 35SP for example (why would one need average and spot metering in a rangefinder camera, right?..)

Difficulty of camera repair in modern times kinda forces me to resort to one of two possible camera choices: 1. one with mechanical shutter, simple enough so I can service it on my own (like Nikon FM), or 2. fully electronic one which is also cheap to replace in case it dies (like Nikon N80). I'm no rich enough to afford owning and more importantly - maintaining a camera like FM3a.

tokam · May 19, 2023

Chan Tran said:
Canon EF is a shutter priority auto exposure and the shutter is mechanical from 1/2 to 1/1000. The long shutter speeds from 1 to 8 sec is electronic because mechanical shutter isn't very accurate in this range. However the new Canon AE-1 all shutter speeds are electronic and it wouldn't work at any speed if the battery is dead.
Aperture priority auto exposure cameras tend to have 1 mechanical shutter speed and generally at the X sync speed.

The Canon EF has electronically timed shutter speeds out to a marked 30 seconds, (some say it is actually 32 seconds but I haven't checked mine). The mechanism, (clockwork?), to do this would be a swine to keep lubricated and adjusted to ensure accuracy.

Chan Tran · May 19, 2023

tokam said:
The Canon EF has electronically timed shutter speeds out to a marked 30 seconds, (some say it is actually 32 seconds but I haven't checked mine). The mechanism, (clockwork?), to do this would be a swine to keep lubricated and adjusted to ensure accuracy.

I just checked mine and it's over 31 sec. ( a bit less than 32 sec. which is supposed to be). Very accurate I would say.

Bill Burk · May 19, 2023

Get one of these for 2 - 32 seconds. It has a T selector too.

Chan Tran · May 19, 2023

Bill Burk said:
Get one of these for 2 - 32 seconds. It has a T selector too.

from 2 to 32 sec I can do it in B and a watch. At the 2 sec speed I think I can do a 5 to 10% accuracy. At the 32 seconds. I can surely do better than 1%

Bill Burk · May 19, 2023

Chan Tran said:
from 2 to 32 sec I can do it in B and a watch. At the 2 sec speed I think I can do a 5 to 10% accuracy. At the 32 seconds. I can surely do better than 1%

Any time I might need this gizmo I am just as likely to need 30 minutes. So it sees little use.

Chan Tran · May 19, 2023

Bill Burk said:
Any time I might need this gizmo I am just as likely to need 30 minutes. So it sees little use.

If you need 30 min then a timer is useful but between 2 and 32 second manual is fine. You can hold the cable release for 32 seconds without getting tired. So that is a range where the electronic shutter excels but really isn't needed.

benjiboy · May 20, 2023

One thing to bear in mind with electronically controlled slow shutter speeds is that you don't get many exposures out of your camera battery.

Bronson Dugnutt · May 20, 2023

Bill Burk said:
The Pentax ES-II has one additional mechanical speed most people don’t know about.

With shutter set to B and using the self-timer… you get a one second exposure.

These are the types of one-liners that make random photrio threads worth reading. I just tried this with a Vivitar 35ES, a shutter priority auto & GN/distance coupled variant of the Hi-Matic 7sii, and it has the same shutter behavior. Surely the 'ES' in their names is a coincidence but @reddesert is correct in his observations about the shutter priority Konicas.

The meter appears to still use the minimum shutter speed (1/8s) for exposure calculation so it will auto expose at +3 for any given ISO setting, thus 'extending' the lowest ISO from 25 to 3. Neat.

Les Sarile · May 20, 2023

benjiboy said:
The Canon New F1 has a Titanium horizontal shutter that gives speeds from 8 seconds to 1/60 electronically, and from 1/90 to 1/2000 mechanically even if the battery fails.
With the AE view finder added it gives aperture priority metering , by also adding either the the power winder or the motor drive additionally provides shutter priority AE.

Oddly, the exhausted battery must be removed from the chamber in order for the camera to work. Not sure why this is the case.

Bill Burk · May 20, 2023

Bronson Dugnutt said:
These are the types of one-liners that make random photrio threads worth reading. I just tried this with a Vivitar 35ES, a shutter priority auto & GN/distance coupled variant of the Hi-Matic 7sii, and it has the same shutter behavior. Surely the 'ES' in their names is a coincidence but @reddesert is correct in his observations about the shutter priority Konicas.

The meter appears to still use the minimum shutter speed (1/8s) for exposure calculation so it will auto expose at +3 for any given ISO setting, thus 'extending' the lowest ISO from 25 to 3. Neat.

Thanks !

I only learned this feature recently while doing a CLA even though I have used an ES-II over forty years.

Mechanical + electronic hybrid shutter

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