Max size paper for Paterson 12" x 16" development trays?

logan2z · Mar 7, 2024

Silly question perhaps, but does anyone know the maximum paper size that can be accommodated by the Paterson 12" x 16" developing trays? B&H Photo's site says 11" x 14" is the max size, but the max size listed for the 5x7" tray is 5"x7", the 8"x10" tray's max size is listed as 8"x10" and the max size listed for the 16"x20" tray is 16"x20". So it seems odd that the 12" x 16" tray is not able to accept a 12" x 16" piece of paper. I double checked with B&H and they said 11" x 14" paper is the max size, but I thought I'd ask here since it seems strange to me.

Maris · Mar 7, 2024

My Paterson trays are marked on the underside 12X15 ins (30X40 cms) and 11X14 ins. Actual measurement shows the largest size of photographic paper that fits is 12X15 ins. But that is not a standard size that you can buy. Cutting an inch off 12X16 paper would do it but who does that? The largest standard size paper that fits is, as B&H suggests, 11X14 inch.

Ben 4 · Mar 7, 2024

Doesn't (or didn't) Ilford make 12X16 paper? I've never used it, but do recall seeing it at one time as a listed vareity.

Lachlan Young · Mar 7, 2024

They used to be 12x15, but have been 12x16 for decades now (I think 1980-ish was when the UK manufacturers finally adopted the European standard of 12x16/ 30x40cm rather than the UK plate size derived 12x15). I think I have seen one, maybe two 12x15's to dozens of 12x16's over the last 20 years.

They take 12x16, if they say '12x16'. The Major Print washer is still 12x15 though.

11x14 and 12x16 are the readily available paper sizes today.

logan2z · Mar 7, 2024

Ben 4 said:
Doesn't (or didn't) Ilford make 12X16 paper?

They do:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1017779-REG/ilford_1172078_mgfb1k_classc_12_x16_50.html

pentaxuser · Mar 7, 2024

Lachlan Young said:
I think I have seen one, maybe two 12x15's to dozens of 12x16's over the last 20 years.

They take 12x16, if they say '12x16'. The Major Print washer is still 12x15 though.

So 12 x16 trays take 12x16 paper. I am glad someone has said this as until I saw your statement Lachlan I was beginning to wonder. Just a pity that we seem to spread alarm and despondency on Photrio whenever a question on a fact often seems to meet with answers that causes the questioner to despair. It can get like the joke: Tourist to local: "A nice church clock, does it keep good time?" Local to tourist: Oh yes but you need to know that when it says three o' clock, strikes 4 times it is spot on one thirty

I take it that a 12x16 sheet in a 12x16 tray is tight but that as long as the developer is moving over the sheet then the amount of movement available for the sheet does not matter in terms of satisfactory development

pentaxuser

Pieter12 · Mar 7, 2024

Cut a piece of paper to size and try it.

logan2z · Mar 7, 2024

Pieter12 said:
Cut a piece of paper to size and try it.

I could do that, but I wanted to know based on an actual sheet of Ilford's 12 x16 paper in case it isn't exactly 12 x 16. Just trying to avoid purchasing a box of 12" x 16" paper only to find out that it doesn't fit in my trays.

Pieter12 · Mar 7, 2024

logan2z said:
I could do that, but I wanted to know based on an actual sheet of Ilford's 12 x16 paper in case it isn't exactly 12 x 16. Just trying to avoid purchasing a box of 12" x 16" paper only to find out that it doesn't fit in my trays.

I mean a piece of scrap paper, like some Kraft paper or even 4 sheets of bond letter paper taped together. It’s just for fit.

xkaes · Mar 7, 2024

I would think a ruler would be all that's needed. They still make those, don't they?

Pieter12 · Mar 7, 2024

xkaes said:
I would think a ruler would be all that's needed. They still make those, don't they?

Cmon. Too easy. Especially when you can get the internet to do the work.

logan2z · Mar 7, 2024

Pieter12 said:
Cmon. Too easy. Especially when you can get the internet to do the work.

Funny stuff guys. As I said, I was not sure if the Ilford 12 x16 sheets were exactly 12 x 16 so I didn't think it was that outrageous to ask if someone had tried that size Ilford paper in a Paterson 12 x 16 tray.

MattKing · Mar 7, 2024

The 12"x16" paper is 12"x16" in size.
Now if you start asking about A3 or A4 or other metric sizes, I can't help you there!
I have two slightly different versions of the 12"x16" Paterson trays. I expect that the maximum length of paper usable in them is the same, but they don't stack perfectly - if I put some of them on the bottom, the others stack inside neatly, but if you reverse the order, the fit is slightly less compact.
They have been made over a long period of time, so there is no surprise that they vary slightly.
Oh, by the way, I think they are officially known as 16"x12" trays, when they come out of the factory.

Nige · Mar 7, 2024

I thought I had 12x16 Paterson trays and don't recall having trouble with 12x16 paper but upon inspection, they aren't Paterson but would hold a 13x17" piece of paper... none of that is any help to you though

logan2z · Mar 8, 2024

MattKing said:
The 12"x16" paper is 12"x16" in size.
Now if you start asking about A3 or A4 or other metric sizes, I can't help you there!
I have two slightly different versions of the 12"x16" Paterson trays. I expect that the maximum length of paper usable in them is the same, but they don't stack perfectly - if I put some of them on the bottom, the others stack inside neatly, but if you reverse the order, the fit is slightly less compact.
They have been made over a long period of time, so there is no surprise that they vary slightly.
Oh, by the way, I think they are officially known as 16"x12" trays, when they come out of the factory.

Thanks Matt.

bernard_L · Mar 8, 2024

Fantastic thread.

Buzz-01 · Mar 8, 2024

My fairly recent 12x16 Paterson trays (2020 purchased, typePTP326G with EAN code 5022361010493) will perfectly accomodate a sheet of Fomaspeed Variant 12x16", while still maintaining a little free space on either side of the paper.

A little bit more in the length than in the width, but it's probably something like half an inch space in width and about an inch in length:

The paper inside is Fomaspeed Variant 12x16"

I haven't made any prints that size on Ilford paper, but for all other Ilford papers I use, the actual dimensions are pretty close to what's written on the box.
So yes, it should fit just fine.

logan2z · Mar 8, 2024

Buzz-01 said:
My fairly recent 12x16 Paterson trays (2020 purchased, typePTP326G with EAN code 5022361010493) will perfectly accomodate a sheet of Fomaspeed Variant 12x16", while still maintaining a little free space on either side of the paper.

A little bit more in the length than in the width, but it's probably something like half an inch space in width and about an inch in length:

The paper inside is Fomaspeed Variant 12x16"

I haven't made any prints that size on Ilford paper, but for all other Ilford papers I use, the actual dimensions are pretty close to what's written on the box.
So yes, it should fit just fine.

Great, thanks for the infol

logan2z · Mar 8, 2024

bernard_L said:
Fantastic thread.

I aim to please

pentaxuser · Mar 8, 2024

logan2z said:
Funny stuff guys. As I said, I was not sure if the Ilford 12 x16 sheets were exactly 12 x 16 so I didn't think it was that outrageous to ask if someone had tried that size Ilford paper in a Paterson 12 x 16 tray.

No. it is not outrageous, especially when you review some of the answers to your simple question. It may be me but the problem with a ruler is that you have to have the actual tray in front of you to measure which means buying one and hoping it is definitely 12x16, doesn't it ?

Lachlan and Buzz 01, especially Buzz, have given unequivocal answers but it might be more reassuring had there been other unequivocal answers as well

pentaxuser

Lachlan Young · Mar 8, 2024

The current '12x16' size Paterson trays take 12x16" paper, as anyone who has used them will know very well.

B&H have got it listed wrongly. Freestyle have listed them correctly - like just about every other retailer on the planet who sells them.

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2024

Lachlan Young said:
They used to be 12x15, but have been 12x16 for decades now (I think 1980-ish was when the UK manufacturers finally adopted the European standard of 12x16/ 30x40cm rather than the UK plate size derived 12x15). I think I have seen one, maybe two 12x15's to dozens of 12x16's over the last 20 years.

They take 12x16, if they say '12x16'. The Major Print washer is still 12x15 though.

11x14 and 12x16 are the readily available paper sizes today.

I think Paterson switched from 12"x15" to 12"x16" sized trays in the early 1970s, I still have my oldest set, I've not thrown any out. I do use one for potting seedlings

It may have been around 1980 when they switched to the much better high density polythene trays from what I'd assume is polystyrene or a similar polymer.

Ian

logan2z · Mar 8, 2024

Lachlan Young said:
B&H have got it listed wrongly. Freestyle have listed them correctly - like just about every other retailer on the planet who sells them.

If the 12" x 16" tray can hold 12" x16" paper, then Paterson themselves seem to have it wrong:

Developing Tray 12x16" (for 11x14) -

This Paterson Developing Tray is constructed of a hard durable, chemical resistant plastic, and is available for all popular print sizes in 3 colors to help differentiate between chemicals under safelight conditions. This is a single white tray that is 12 x 16" (30.5 x 40.6cm) in dimension...

www.patersonphotographic.ca

pentaxuser · Mar 8, 2024

I suppose it depends on what you consider "wrong" The dimensions stated are that of 12x16 but taking the sheet out of tray assuming a sheet of 12x16 is exactly 12x16 allows only access with fingers or tongs via the pouring spout at one corner, assuming of course that all 12x16 sheets of whatever make are exactly 12x16 or slightly less. Foma's 12x16 paper would seem to give some space all round and enough room according to Buzz

What you need to put this thread "to bed" is reports from others as to their experience with 12x16 trays and sheets including exact internal measurements of the trays and a sheet of 12x16

pentaxuser

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2024

logan2z said:
If the 12" x 16" tray can hold 12" x16" paper, then Paterson themselves seem to have it wrong:

Developing Tray 12x16" (for 11x14) -

This Paterson Developing Tray is constructed of a hard durable, chemical resistant plastic, and is available for all popular print sizes in 3 colors to help differentiate between chemicals under safelight conditions. This is a single white tray that is 12 x 16" (30.5 x 40.6cm) in dimension...

www.patersonphotographic.ca

No they haven't it's just that many darkroom workers actually like to use an oversize tray, and that is NOT Paterson's website, just a distributors, with incorrect data. If I'm having a long printing session I use 20"x16" trays for 16"x12 prints.

Ian

Max size paper for Paterson 12" x 16" development trays?

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