Matte B&W Paper...is it just bad?

[MTGseattle]

The first time I used Ilford's MG fiber based matte, I too was wondering if I goofed. I pressed on, and I like it. That being said, it has to work with the image.
If you have a print that you really enjoy on glossy you likely will not like it on matte.
I recently scored some forte warm tone semi-matte, and I like it a lot. Again though, not for every negative. Also, the warm tone doesn't necessarily work for everything either. To the un-initiated it may appear fogged or like your chemistry is messed up. (that may be a bit drastic)

 

[DREW WILEY]

Milpool - a little background history. The air quality of turn of the Century industrialized cities was atrocious. Due to so much coal burning, with its sulphur dioxide output, silver papers didn't hold up well. So there were multiple firms making platinum papers, which were quite resistant to air pollution. The leading one was the Platinotype Company of London, which coated a wide variety of papers and textiles for over half a century (1880-1932). Large volumes of it sold. George Eastman tried to get in on the act, but couldn't get around the patents and trade secrets.

Platinum was a lot less expensive than today. The two world wars changed that equation. Somebody recently discovered an unopened container of 4X5 platinum paper from an American company, replete with amateur instructions and a price list, along with an unopened can of the developing chemistry. The paper was 4x5 and well under a dollar for about 20 sheets, while the matching dry chemical kit was ten cents - about a day's wage for the whole kit, well within the income level of professional photographers or even middle class hobbyists. That same company offered many sizes, up to 20 inch width X 26 ft long rolls.

 

[koraks]

I had no idea any packaged alt papers of that sort ever existed. Indeed they would have to be extremely expensive.

Firstly, in those days, there was nothing 'alternative' about platinum printing. It was just one of the common processes used at the time.
Secondly, the price of platinum was pretty low since the material had very few (if any) applications. Much later it became widely used as a catalyst, for instance. Demand soared, and so did prices.

 

[SMD]

Am I just doing it wrong? Is there some secret to matte paper that I don't know?

The question is how you dry?

 

[Carnie Bob]

Interesting. I thought I knew a decent amount about photo papers but I had no idea any packaged alt papers of that sort ever existed. Indeed they would have to be extremely expensive. I’ve always wanted to try a few of those processes but never have due to having to hand-coat. I’ve just never had the time or wherewithal to go down that rabbit hole.

Go down the rabbit hole its worth the venture, for me it was a life changing experience - took me 8 years to figure out with some mentorship

I print silver, and gum over pd which is my fav... Regarding commercial Pt PD papers Drew is correct it was all the rage early last century and a husband wife team out of NYState had a thriving business in the late 80/s early 90's, I purchased and used frequently, The problem was they were 25 years ahead of the digital negative curve and I truly believe if someone started now this type of business it would fly, offer custom any size digital negs.
Making enlarged negs the optical way is and was very time consuming and required technical prowess, this area of the process pushed the price of pt pd prints out of the range my clients at the time were willing to pay. Today quite the opposite is happening and this process makes up a nice percentage of my business.


I personally never fell in love with Pt Pd as I was mainly a Silver Printer 30 years ago and I was naive or limited in my acceptance of what I considered flat prints vs my usual popping silvers.
When I learned how to create a shadow negative and multiple hit dense black pigments in those regions over Palladium my whole view of printmaking changed and now today I much prefer the matt surface if toned or multiple printed with pigmented gum.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

"Matte B&W Paper...is it just bad?"

If one seeks solid blacks in a darkroom paper, the answer is an unequivocal "yes." For those who are satisfied with dark gray as the lowest print value, then no.

Recently I've begun using Canson Arches 88 with an Epson P600. If inkjet prints are an acceptable alternative for anyone who's repulsed by excessive surface shine on glossy papers (both darkroom and inkjet), note that the Epson/Arches combination is capable of a 1.84 Dmax, substantially higher than matte alternatives.

 

[GregY]

IMO there's nothing "excessive" about air dried glossy prints given the current papers.
I do sometimes use Ilford Multigrade Art 300 for printing portraits.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

IMO there's nothing "excessive" about air dried glossy prints given the current papers.
I do sometimes use Ilford Multigrade Art 300 for printing portraits.

In my opinion, all current Ilford glossy darkroom papers, air dried, are excessively shiny. Only when displayed under very controlled lighting conditions can images printed on them be viewed without veiling glare. Held in the hand, reflections from ambient room light obscure pictures to an annoying degree. The last Ilford paper that had an excellent air-dried glossy surface was the late lamented Galerie.

Air-dried glossy Foma 111 is much less bad. Far from perfect (or even Galerie), but reasonably acceptable compared to Ilford's offerings.

 

[GregY]

In my opinion, all current Ilford glossy darkroom papers, air dried, are excessively shiny. Only when displayed under very controlled lighting conditions can images printed on them be viewed without veiling glare. Held in the hand, reflections from ambient room light obscure pictures to an annoying degree. The last Ilford paper that had an excellent air-dried glossy surface was the late lamented Galerie.

Air-dried glossy Foma 111 is much less bad. Far from perfect (or even Galerie), but reasonably acceptable compared to Ilford's offerings.

Galerie was a fine paper. Unfortunately even Foma is harder to get these days... but we need to work with what's available to us....& in general i prefer glossy over matt.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Bob - the couple you refer to returned here afterwards, and remained well ahead of the curve in digital and laser etching processes too.
There were regrets over some of the health issues they experienced in their previous large scale platinum phase. They did a lot of big expensive commission work here by other novel means. I was sometimes peripherally involved with them in terms of shop equipment issues and conversation about impending special projects. They've now wound down the operation into more of a teaching facility for aspiring local innovative printmakers, plus a certain amount of in-house printing services. The general photographic community has been largely unaware of ventures like these, since these folks mainly dealt just with big name artists with deep pockets.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Bob - the couple you refer to moved here afterwards, and remained well ahead of the curve in digital and laser etching processes too.
There were regrets over some of the health issues they experienced in their previous large scale platinum phase. They did a lot of big expensive commission work here by other novel means. I was sometimes peripherally involved with them in terms of shop equipment issues and conversation about impending special projects. They've now wound down the operation into more of a teaching facility for aspiring local innovative printmakers, plus a certain amount of in-house printing services. The general photographic community has been largely unaware of ventures like these, since these folks mainly dealt just with big name artists with deep pockets.

Hi Drew, I met both of them at the Javits Photo show in NY in the early 90's , what they were doing was remarkable for the time, they had a booth where they were printing PT PD inside the Javits center, it was a hit of the show, well for me at least. You by chance do not know of the teaching facility they are running out there in California, I would like to follow them.

 

[DREW WILEY]

They once had their New Platinotype booth here at the annual SF photo show here too. I probably still have their old brochure and price list somewhere. Commercial platinum coating was apparently just a temporary venture. I hope I'm not confusing them with someone else, but that would be an almost unimaginable coincidence, even as per their personal appearance, given my intermittent conversations with them in person over the decades. They hunt out new methods of printmaking, or else try to revive and improve old ones, and hold numerous patents.

I don't see any classes listed on their latest website layout, but they're obviously mentoring a lot of young locals in various fashions of printmaking and bookmaking. I haven't spoken with Donald since prior to my retirement, right around the time they were doing the big NYC subway ceramic image installations in 2017. We were discussing some enviro/health issue roadblocks to a revival of Woodburytype printing. Big tapestry imagery (digitally woven color, not printed upon) seems to be their current thrust. You can still contact them at the Magnolia Editions site.

You might be particularly interested in Donald's articles on paper making, now openly available on the website. His recent personal project, the Parma Portraits, was done on handmade paper, containing his sketches of the Italian medical staff who brought him back from the brink due to Covid two years earlier. It's masterfully done and touching, and on display at a SF art museum.

Another thing which might pique your curiosity, Bob, as an alternative to gum is UV Cured Acrylic Imagery, as exemplified in some of their current 2024 work. Their machine for that is huge. They are somewhat unique as a custom printing service with respect to it being mandatory for the client to be there in person to review the work coming off the machines. They also offer large scale inkjet services and specialized types of CNC image making. Digitized resist-style photogravure has been their proprietary specialty for quite awhile.

I once equipped them for a giant hardwood self-portrait portrait of Chuck Close, their main client at the time, based on an 8x10 film shot. Nearly everything they did for Chuck involved 8X10 film originals. It's pretty amazing how a twenty foot wide hanging tapestry woven from many shades of dyed gray silk can mimic the subtle look of a platinum print. That kind of project would amount to a 7 figure final sale to a museum or private collector.

Sorry folks for a bit of an inside conversation, but if the rest of you want to see just how far this topic of image surface distinctions can range, the website I just listed would give a clue. Magnolia has taken on some incredible projects over the years. Certainly not all of it is photographic per se, but about half of it is.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Hi Drew - after some research on my fb groups the name of the company was The Palladio Company and it was run by Sura Steinberg and Robert Steinberg.

Regarding this paragraph of yours - Another thing which might pique your curiosity, Bob, as an alternative to gum is UV Cured Acrylic Imagery, as exemplified in some of their current 2024 work. Their machine for that is huge. They are somewhat unique as a custom printing service with respect to it being mandatory for the client to be there in person to review the work coming off the machines. They also offer large scale inkjet services and specialized types of CNC image making. Digitized resist-style photogravure has been their proprietary specialty for quite awhile.

I am surprised you did not see my recent thread that nobody here responded too.

UV Polymer Flat Bed Printers

I am looking at this technology, in fact have spoken to the manufactures of one of the machines Nayla 4 - made by Swiss Q
I am not sure it can do what I envision wanting to do.

Maybe this conversation we are having is better suited on that thread if you so desire to continue.

 

[Milpool]

Go down the rabbit hole its worth the venture, for me it was a life changing experience - took me 8 years to figure out with some mentorship

I print silver, and gum over pd which is my fav... Regarding commercial Pt PD papers Drew is correct it was all the rage early last century and a husband wife team out of NYState had a thriving business in the late 80/s early 90's, I purchased and used frequently, The problem was they were 25 years ahead of the digital negative curve and I truly believe if someone started now this type of business it would fly, offer custom any size digital negs.
Making enlarged negs the optical way is and was very time consuming and required technical prowess, this area of the process pushed the price of pt pd prints out of the range my clients at the time were willing to pay. Today quite the opposite is happening and this process makes up a nice percentage of my business.


I personally never fell in love with Pt Pd as I was mainly a Silver Printer 30 years ago and I was naive or limited in my acceptance of what I considered flat prints vs my usual popping silvers.
When I learned how to create a shadow negative and multiple hit dense black pigments in those regions over Palladium my whole view of printmaking changed and now today I much prefer the matt surface if toned or multiple printed with pigmented gum.

It would be quite an adventure, both exciting and very challenging. It’s not really about platinum or alt processes for me (actually I’ve not found platinum/palladium to be anything special) but rather the ability to make things like inkjet masks, which I have many ideas for, and even inkjet prints, including colour. I envision great things but realistically although I’ve done a lot of reading it’s probably too high a hill to climb at least for the time being. I’m not outfitted at all for editing and inkjet equipment-wise, I’d need to learn a lot about scanning/editing, and I’m a very slow worker with major perfectionism issues .

 

[DREW WILEY]

OK - thanks for that clarification, Bob. Yeah, I do remember that name Steinberg. So it was a coincidence - two different parties doing big innovative Pt/Pd prints around the same time, but only one offering their paper for public sale. It appears their demise was not lack of demand, but the preferred paper for sake of coating itself disappearing.

I won't wander down the other lane here.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Milpool - the whole inkjet route is obviously appealing nowadays, especially for those who don't have their own darkroom space or who use digital cameras; but don't imagine it's going to bring you better results. It offers a different range of options, and yes, involves learning a lot of new stuff. Frankly, the best inkjet printmakers I know did their best work back in their darkroom days. But they each had their own personal reasons to change. In other words, the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.

If you're interested in learning masking, there are all kind of effective techniques which don't involve any kind of scanning or digital output at all, including differential color masking for sake of VC papers. Many of those techniques were developed long ago, and have simply been forgotten, but were once commonplace, and are still realistic. Just take things a step at a time, until you feel the need for something more advanced being added to your tool kit.

 

[Milpool]

Milpool - the whole inkjet route is obviously appealing nowadays, especially for those who don't have their own darkroom space or who use digital cameras; but don't imagine it's going to bring you better results. It offers a different range of options, and yes, involves learning a lot of new stuff. Frankly, the best inkjet printmakers I know did their best work back in their darkroom days. But they each had their own personal reasons to change. In other words, the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.

If you're interested in learning masking, there are all kind of effective techniques which don't involve any kind of scanning or digital output at all, including differential color masking for sake of VC papers. Many of those techniques were developed long ago, and have simply been forgotten, but were once commonplace, and are still realistic. Just take things a step at a time, until you feel the need for something more advanced being added to your tool kit.

Yeah inkjet is definitely different than darkroom (which is all I’ve ever done) but the best inkjet work I’ve seen over the past few years by a few people I have always considered to be at the top of the print quality game has been absolutely superb, every bit as good as the best darkroom print - perhaps better in some cases due to the virtually infinite control at small scales. And when it comes to color… even though I have a good (though small) darkroom I have never had any interest in doing color darkroom work. I’ve had a lot of fun learning about it but never actually tried it and don’t want to. I’d never get anything done.

Silver masking is a whole other topic but I use it relatively rarely as a last resort. It is not a process I enjoy and for sheet film it has frankly become too expensive for me so I really don’t do it anymore. Since the masks I make are for burning/dodging rather than for edge effects, global contrast control and such, it takes several “generations” to make them. With some trial/error at each stage (there’s inevitably at least some of that when it comes to making good masks) it all adds up to a lot of TMX. Not too bad for 35mm but 4x5 Kodak film is a fortune.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I find it just the opposite - the absence of the same kind of fine nuance control in inkjet media which is relatively straightforward in darkroom printing, especially when it comes to microtonality and subtle toning. But that's a debate for a different thread. And yes, things are getting expensive. Tangle with 8x10 film, and you especially feel the shift.

 

[revdoc]

Hi Drew - after some research on my fb groups the name of the company was The Palladio Company and it was run by Sura Steinberg and Robert Steinberg.

Robert Steinberg writing about how the business ended:

Why The Palladio Company Went Away: The True History of its Demise

Some of you may remember The Palladio Company, which made machine coated platinum-palladium photographic paper. That was my baby. And in it’s youth I gave it up for adoption, wishing it well in all…

rjsteinberg.wordpress.com

 

[DREW WILEY]

Yeah. What was also so interesting is how his original objective was to make palladium a proofing material for his albumen printing. Once albumen proved to be too unpredictable for that, he then realized what an impactful thing the palladium result might become in its own right. I presume there have been numerous parallels in photographic history.

While I'm personally content to work within the realm of manufactured silver papers, I have always admired what Pt/Pd and similar processes have brought to the table in terms the options and beauty of the paper surface itself. That fact undermined what Steinberg commercially had in mind, because practitioners actually enjoyed coating their own paper choices whether or not the result was superior; the tactility became part of allure of the craft, and he certainly didn't mince his words in that respect. Today, mention platinum or palladium printing, and "hand coating" becomes synonymous. That is the case with carbon printing too, which once had its numerous factory pre-coated options as well.

I haven't tried any of the new Iford "Art" surface MG paper yet, but have fiddled with analogous products in the past. I guess those products have their place, but aren't really either fish nor fowl.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

This prints well on a matte finish paper, particularly when toned this way:
View attachment 380703

And this one can work on matte finish paper too:

View attachment 380704

What toner are you using?

 

[MattKing]

What toner are you using?

I believe that that was Berg brown toner. What you see, by the way, is my best efforts at duplicating on a scan the effect of toner on the darkroom print.
I've been trying to get up to speed with using readily available Kala Namak (Black Salt) to obtain similar results. I've had decent results.
Here is a related Photrio Resource: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/kala-namak-sepia-toner-for-indirect-toning.451/

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

I believe that that was Berg brown toner. What you see, by the way, is my best efforts at duplicating on a scan the effect of toner on the darkroom print.
I've been trying to get up to speed with using readily available Kala Namak (Black Salt) to obtain similar results. I've had decent results.
Here is a related Photrio Resource: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/kala-namak-sepia-toner-for-indirect-toning.451/

Thanks for the information. I will give it a try.