Material Cost Discussion - Global markets vs the humble print maker

[cirwin2010]

Hopefully this isn't an inflammatory topic and that this is the most appropriate place for it. Raw material costs for precious metals have gotten outrageous! I can't help but wonder about future cost sustainabiliy for the purposes of art and how the community is adapting.

To those that have been doing this longer than I, how have you adapted to the price increases? Have you had to change what you make or how you work? Any cost saving tips worth sharing? Have folks switched to non precious metal type processes like carbon transfer?


I had hoped to one day get into platinum palladium printing, but that not longer seems feasible. I'm getting amazing results with my Pt and Pd toned kallitypes so I'm likely going to be sticking with that for now. Per my math a toned kallitype uses about 20-25% as much Pt/Pd solution as a true Pt/Pd print. But even then the cost of the solution for the toner isn't insignificant. My precious silver gelatin paper also hasn't been safe from global ecconomics

 

[retina_restoration]

This has been discussed before: the silver in film and paper is just one of many costs involved in the manufacture of these materials, and the prices of metals alone does not significantly affect the prices of film and paper. What pushes prices up is the cost of manufacture more than anything, especially now that companies like Ilford and Kodak are working on a scale that is so much smaller than how they once were.

 

[Alan Townsend]

Hopefully this isn't an inflammatory topic and that this is the most appropriate place for it. Raw material costs for precious metals have gotten outrageous! I can't help but wonder about future cost sustainabiliy for the purposes of art and how the community is adapting.

I would say it's more inflationary than inflammatory, but verging on political due to trade restrictions and tariffs. Gold and silver way up, both greatly incresing cost of film photography.

To those that have been doing this longer than I, how have you adapted to the price increases? Have you had to change what you make or how you work? Any cost saving tips worth sharing? Have folks switched to non precious metal type processes like carbon transfer?

I've always been on the cost conscious side, but that's because it's more fun to do things on the cheap. Just the last two years, my camera film cost has risen 67%. I will be more careful with clicking the shutter, a good plan anyway. Also planning to use more xray film in my future. Been working on using sulfide sepia toner for vandyke brown printing. Still a work in progress, but sulfide is cheaper and likely a better toner than gold, but may not quite be for platinum/palladium. Print less and study negs on computer more is another tip. Learn to visualize better and work on compositional skills instead of printing. Carbon printing (more correctly known as pigment printing) gives the best of all quality results in photography anyway, so not a bad idea.

I had hoped to one day get into platinum palladium printing, but that not longer seems feasible. I'm getting amazing results with my Pt and Pd toned kallitypes so I'm likely going to be sticking with that for now. Per my math a toned kallitype uses about 20-25% as much Pt/Pd solution as a true Pt/Pd print. But even then the cost of the solution for the toner isn't insignificant.

So you can change toner, make smaller prints, and/or fewer prints. There are many options. Platinum/Palladium printing was never appealing to me due to the cost and my reverse snob mentaility, so I always though pigment printing was the best one anyway. So take up pigment printing but don't use noble metal pigments for that. Also don't overdo it be use floor sweepings or dirts either. Go the middle ground with traditional art pigments.

My precious silver gelatin paper also hasn't been safe from global ecconomics

This one can also be reduced greatly or eliminated if necessary.

 

[cirwin2010]

This has been discussed before: the silver in film and paper is just one of many costs involved in the manufacture of these materials, and the prices of metals alone does not significantly affect the prices of film and paper. What pushes prices up is the cost of manufacture more than anything, especially now that companies like Ilford and Kodak are working on a scale that is so much smaller than how they once were.

My comment on silver gelatin invited this, so that's on me. Yes, this was discussed before and, yes, you are correct that much of it comes down to the cost of manufacturing.

My intent was to discuss the impact of global supply and demand on the raw materials needed to create the sensitizers (and toners) for processes like platinum palladium, chrysotype, kallitype, van dyke, etc. While chemical manufacturing costs definitely are a factor, the global supply and demand for the raw materials is far greater.

 

[cirwin2010]

I would say it's more inflationary than inflammatory, but verging on political due to trade restrictions and tariffs. Gold and silver way up, both greatly incresing cost of film photography.

I've always been on the cost conscious side, but that's because it's more fun to do things on the cheap. Just the last two years, my camera film cost has risen 67%. I will be more careful with clicking the shutter, a good plan anyway. Also planning to use more xray film in my future. Been working on using sulfide sepia toner for vandyke brown printing. Still a work in progress, but sulfide is cheaper and likely a better toner than gold, but may not quite be for platinum/palladium. Print less and study negs on computer more is another tip. Learn to visualize better and work on compositional skills instead of printing. Carbon printing (more correctly known as pigment printing) gives the best of all quality results in photography anyway, so not a bad idea.

So you can change toner, make smaller prints, and/or fewer prints. There are many options. Platinum/Palladium printing was never appealing to me due to the cost and my reverse snob mentaility, so I always though pigment printing was the best one anyway. So take up pigment printing but don't use noble metal pigments for that. Also don't overdo it be use floor sweepings or dirts either. Go the middle ground with traditional art pigments.

This one can also be reduced greatly or eliminated if necessary.

"Inflationary"

Well I'm already incredibly picky when it comes to clicking the shutter, especially with anything using film. Been using digital more to print digital negatives for alt process as my largest film format is 4x5. Not saying you can't make good 4x5 contact prints, but I like things a touch bigger. Also gives me the advantage to front load all my testing and calibration so that when I want to make an alt process print, I know what I am getting on the first attempt. Though front loading all that testing and calibration also front loaded a lot of costs....

I haven't looked much into the cost requirements of carbon, but I know I'll eventually go that way. Biggest problem is I don't want to deal with dichromates and DAS has its own challenges. There is a paper written by Halvor Bjoerngard about using FAC as a sensitizer that I haven't read yet.

Regarding toners for vandyke (and by extension kallitype) what have you been exploring exactly for sepia? I tried my typical bleach and sepia sulfide toner out of curiosity once, but most of the image did not return on redevelopment. I imagine a direct toner would have better success. I also think many of the gold toners for alt processes are gold sulfide toners.

 

[koraks]

Of course, it's frustrating. Then again...

Explore printing processes that use modest materials. The realm of alt. process is so large. Only a small part of it relies on noble metals. There are plenty of ways to express yourself. This summer I made some prints using bits of charcoal that didn't entirely burn up in the barbeque.

Don't forget Pt/Pd printing goes back to days when platinum didn't have much of an application and was therefore relatively cheap. People just used what worked well and was accessible. We can do the same. There's no obligation for us to limit ourselves to an optimum that once was, but now has ceased to be.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Hopefully this isn't an inflammatory topic and that this is the most appropriate place for it. Raw material costs for precious metals have gotten outrageous! I can't help but wonder about future cost sustainabiliy for the purposes of art and how the community is adapting.

To those that have been doing this longer than I, how have you adapted to the price increases? Have you had to change what you make or how you work? Any cost saving tips worth sharing? Have folks switched to non precious metal type processes like carbon transfer?


I had hoped to one day get into platinum palladium printing, but that not longer seems feasible. I'm getting amazing results with my Pt and Pd toned kallitypes so I'm likely going to be sticking with that for now. Per my math a toned kallitype uses about 20-25% as much Pt/Pd solution as a true Pt/Pd print. But even then the cost of the solution for the toner isn't insignificant. My precious silver gelatin paper also hasn't been safe from global ecconomics

Have you considered Satista as a more economical alternative to both Pt/Pd and toned Kallitype? It seems to be an interesting process giving results that are supposedly very similar to Pt/Pd.

https://disactis.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=609 http://www.picto.info/RK_texts/PtPdRKO_e.pdf https://www.alternativephotography.com/satista-prints/

If there're any Satista printers in this forum, I would be very interested in knowing their experiences especially potential pitfalls.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Regarding toners for vandyke (and by extension kallitype) what have you been exploring exactly for sepia? I tried my typical bleach and sepia sulfide toner out of curiosity once, but most of the image did not return on redevelopment. I imagine a direct toner would have better success. I also think many of the gold toners for alt processes are gold sulfide toners.

We can get sepia tone in VDB without any toning. Check @NedL's thread on sepiaprint for details. Kallitype also has a developer that's known to give sepia tone, if you check Kallitype literature.

Direct toning Kallitype with a Sulphide toner doesn't necessarily give sepia tone. I get neutral black tone with Kallitype prints on Bergger Cot 160 paper when I tone them with DIY polysulphide toner. Kala Namak toner gives yellowish brown tone. I know that @Debanjan does sequential toning of Kallitypes in Kala Namak and Selenium toner to get more appealing dark brown tones. But all Sulphide toners and Selenium toner bleach the print to some extent even in direct toning. They need to be diluted sufficiently.

Check Moersch's monograph on Kallitype; he discusses various toning options for Kallitype prints. His examples of toned Kallitype prints are gorgeous and quite inspiring.

 

[cirwin2010]

Have you considered Satista as a more economical alternative to both Pt/Pd and toned Kallitype? It seems to be an interesting process giving results that are supposedly very similar to Pt/Pd.

https://disactis.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=609 http://www.picto.info/RK_texts/PtPdRKO_e.pdf https://www.alternativephotography.com/satista-prints/

If there're any Satista printers in this forum, I would be very interested in knowing their experiences especially potential pitfalls.

I had not heard of this process before! I just did some reading into it and it is interesting. It appears the amount of Pt or Pd in the sensitizer and the concentration of silver nitrate is flexible. Depending on concentrations and quantities, this may be more or less economical as Pt or Pd toned kallitype. More silver nitrate appears to be needed, but costs may be counteracted by replacing ferric oxalate with ferric ammonium oxalate.

In any case, I may try this at some point to see what sort of results I can achieve.

 

[Alan Townsend]

"Inflationary"

Well I'm already incredibly picky when it comes to clicking the shutter, especially with anything using film. Been using digital more to print digital negatives for alt process as my largest film format is 4x5. Not saying you can't make good 4x5 contact prints, but I like things a touch bigger. Also gives me the advantage to front load all my testing and calibration so that when I want to make an alt process print, I know what I am getting on the first attempt.

Yeah, a photocopy of a lithographic negative. Nothing wrong with that, I know it's popular. Just couldn't resist taking a good natured stab at it.

I haven't looked much into the cost requirements of carbon, but I know I'll eventually go that way. Biggest problem is I don't want to deal with dichromates and DAS has its own challenges.

Dichromates aren't as much of a problem as many think. Been using that for over 50 years and it's well proven and well documented in terms of health problems. A personal choice, though. With careful use, all issues are mitigated nicely. I've never done a large quantity of pigment printing, but plan on doing more in the future. I'm lots more concerned about pyro and it's derivatives since several friends of mine from childhood had father who were photographers that used it, and had Parkinson's disease late in life. It's also not well studied for health effects. Edward Weston comes to mind as well. Yes, DAS is much harder to use based on readings. Personal choices are good.

There is a paper written by Halvor Bjoerngard about using FAC as a sensitizer that I haven't read yet.

Also the CHIBA paper on that. Seems like many problems with that unless you don't mind exposing on the back side of transparent film support or coating on very thin materials and transferring.

Regarding toners for vandyke (and by extension kallitype) what have you been exploring exactly for sepia? I tried my typical bleach and sepia sulfide toner out of curiosity once, but most of the image did not return on redevelopment. I imagine a direct toner would have better success.

Yes, direct toning with very dilute sodium sulfide, like 0.2%. Hard to monitor due to lack of color change and know when your finished, except when the image bleaches away and finishes you. I think it may be workable, but need more work on it next early summer so I can work outside on this.

I also think many of the gold toners for alt processes are gold sulfide toners.

Didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Different years different problems... I found in 1996 it was very expensive to produce a good PT PD print, today in 2025 not so much with tech advances.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The health effects of pyrogallol are well known. Think in terms of many centuries in relation to the leather tanning trade. The suspected interface with Parkinson's disease among a former generation of photographers should factor in the fact that rubber gloves were rarely used at the time.

But I have known artists who health was destroyed due to dichromates
(handled carelessly).

 

[Alan Townsend]

The health effects of pyrogallol are well known. Think in terms of many centuries in relation to the leather tanning trade.

Pretty sure you have it tured around. Dichromates have a very long history in the tanning trade. From Wikipedia:"

Uses​

It was once used in hair dyeing, dyeing of suturing materials. It also has antiseptic properties.

In alkaline solution, pyrogallol undergoes deprotonation. Such solutions absorb oxygen from the air, turning brown. This conversion can be used to determine the amount of oxygen in a gas sample, notably by the use of the Orsat apparatus. Alkaline solutions of pyrogallol have been used for oxygen absorption in gas analysis.

Use in photography"​

And here are the dichromates from Google AI:
Dichromates, like potassium and sodium dichromate, are powerful oxidizing agents used in various industries for
metal treatment (electroplating, corrosion inhibition), leather tanning, wood preservation, and as a key component in making dyes, pigments (like chrome yellow), and explosives, also serving as a reagent in analytical chemistry and photography. They are essential for producing other chromium compounds and have applications from textile dyeing to oil drilling.

The suspected interface with Parkinson's disease among a former generation of photographers should factor in the fact that rubber gloves were rarely used at the time.

As well as the substances themselves. Rubber gloves were also not used in the tanning industry either. Much more leather tanning than hair dieing and photographers, I believe.

But I have known artists who health was destroyed due to dichromates
(handled carelessly).

Artists are one thing, ignorant laborers in industry are another. Always sad to hear. Rubber gloves and neutralizing with ascorbic acid work well. I've seen modern Youtube videos where the teacher knows dichromates are poison, but then goes ahead and put his bare hands in the wash water. Go figure.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh yeah, thanks for pointing out my typo. Pyrogallol has a long history in the leather industry, not dichromates.

There are so many reckless fools on Utube, that I'm surprised that the whole platform hasn't short-circuited and blown up yet.

 

[koraks]

The health effects of pyrogallol are well known. Think in terms of many centuries in relation to the leather tanning trade. The suspected interface with Parkinson's disease among a former generation of photographers should factor in the fact that rubber gloves were rarely used at the time.

1: This has nothing to do with the material costs issue this thread tends to put up for discussion.
2: See the mixup pointed out above; get the facts straight. You still have it wrong in #14. For tanning, chrome alumn (or alternatively chromium(III) sulfate) was widely used. Chrome alum is NOT a Cr(VI) compound and should therefore not be confused with dichromate.
3: You're drawing haphazard conclusions about epidemiology and supposed causes while this is pertinently impossible to do.

Bogus claims & misinformation. Please don't.

Also the CHIBA paper on that. Seems like many problems with that unless you don't mind exposing on the back side of transparent film support or coating on very thin materials and transferring.

There are several spin-offs of 'direct pigment' processes that leverage FAC as a sensitizer (see e.g. posts on the alt. process groups.io mailing list featuring stuff like lupin protein etc.); similarly there are other 'high-tech' sensitizers being employed in e.g. Printmaker's Friend and Zerochrome SbQ. The CHIBA paper was seminal, but I would not recommend it as lore; it's a starting point and the practical applications only followed later.

 

[MTGseattle]

Any wet-plate folks want to chime in on a ballpark cost per plate? Ignore the plate holders and sundry tanks etc, just the glass and chemistry please.

 

[retina_restoration]

Any wet-plate folks want to chime in on a ballpark cost per plate? Ignore the plate holders and sundry tanks etc, just the glass and chemistry please.

That depends on the plate size, and your choice of plate materials.

 

[koraks]

That depends on the plate size, and your choice of plate materials.

Yes, and also on how many attempts are typically involved in making an acceptable plate - or whether "plate" is the single exposure, or refers to the final "keeper".

 

[retina_restoration]

Yes, and also on how many attempts are typically involved in making an acceptable plate - or whether "plate" is the single exposure, or refers to the final "keeper".

I can safely say that I got it right on the FIRST plate maybe twice in ten years. Most images require at least 3 tries to get the image exactly as I want.

 

[Carnie Bob]

I can safely say that I got it right on the FIRST plate maybe twice in ten years. Most images require at least 3 tries to get the image exactly as I want.

that is interesting I have had nothing but issues, the old stuff never an issue with thousands of mounts done.

 

[fgorga]

Hopefully this isn't an inflammatory topic and that this is the most appropriate place for it. Raw material costs for precious metals have gotten outrageous! I can't help but wonder about future cost sustainabiliy for the purposes of art and how the community is adapting.

To those that have been doing this longer than I, how have you adapted to the price increases? Have you had to change what you make or how you work? Any cost saving tips worth sharing? Have folks switched to non precious metal type processes like carbon transfer?

How about cyanotype toned with plant materials? One can get a variety of less 'in your face' hues than Prussian Blue using this approach. (Search my user name herein for examples.)

Another possibility is cuprotype (see: https://www.alternativephotography.com/cuprotype-process/).

Iron and copper are (still) both reasonably priced!

I had hoped to one day get into platinum palladium printing, but that not longer seems feasible. I'm getting amazing results with my Pt and Pd toned kallitypes so I'm likely going to be sticking with that for now. Per my math a toned kallitype uses about 20-25% as much Pt/Pd solution as a true Pt/Pd print. But even then the cost of the solution for the toner isn't insignificant. My precious silver gelatin paper also hasn't been safe from global ecconomics

Toned kallitypes have been know as the 'poor man's' platinum print for a long time. The bottom line, though, is if you want to play in this league you just need to pay the price of admission. Nothing new in this... it has been this way since I started in alto process a few decades ago.

Good luck in which ever direction you head.

 

[koraks]

that is interesting I have had nothing but issues, the old stuff never an issue with thousands of mounts done.

@retina_restoration is talking about the number of tries to get a wet plate collodion shot right the first time. I share his experience that it's extremely rare to nail it on the fist try; you virtually always have to adjust exposure and/or development. I think you're probably talking about something else.

 

[mshchem]

I've never tried this technique. Do you actually use diethyl ether? The stuff is rather volatile

 

[retina_restoration]

I've never tried this technique. Do you actually use diethyl ether? The stuff is rather volatile

Yup. Diethyl ether! Fun stuff. Smells great too lol.
In all seriousness, it is common practice to mix the ether with ethanol for long term storage, as this stabilizes the ether and prevents any "unwanted outcomes".

 

[MTGseattle]

I thought that might happen. for arguments sake; 4x5, glass, wet-plate collodion. (if there are a bunch of different formulas, then crap.) I'm talking per exposure cost just like when we all complain about the per sheet cost of _____ film.