Mask or Kill the Smells - What's best?

(Please move to appropriate forum)

New - and having bought some so-said “more odor-less” chems, I assumed I’d be scot free working from a small bathroom (two sink top, floor, and also using the attached small bathtub room). Those doors are closed when developing and everything is run down the sink and tub afterwards with a fair dose of water from the faucets. However, the bathroom has two doors - one to my daughter’s bedroom and the other to the office room. Uh, things still smell, sharply, and maybe it’s more from the Selenium toner, I’m guessing, but I have no idea. The chemicals are stored under the double sink in closed bottles with well-rinsed trays and while I don’t use fans, there’s always serious volumes of constant cool air conditioning air running into/thru the house and this bathroom and adjacent rooms. I don’t want my daughter‘s room to stink. Things do air-out but only so.

Mind you, I have a very sensitive sense of smell and the lingering scent has only been once remarked after mommy discovered I’ve been developing when they’re asleep (had about half a dozen sessions until I was found out)… she hasn’t thrown my stuff out yet. Yet.

What does one use to mask or kill smells? Something like Mistolene or other scent cleansers down the sinks and tub? Use Comet for sink tub scrub downs? Or do smells adhere to wall paint?

Smells = chemicals. Better not to be exposed than trying to mask and/or hoping to dilute the chemicals in the air (our noses can quickly tire of some smells and not register them anymore.). I am assuming a relatively modern air conditioned home in southern Florida may be recirculating air (with some filtration) rather than making sufficient exchanges of fresh hot air from the outside.

I suggest finding a way to exhaust air from above the trays directly outside quick enough to create negative pressure in the bathroom so air is drawn from the office and bedroom into the bathroom/darkroom...otherwise it seems you are asking your family to live in a darkroom. I live in my studio/dimroom, but by myself...

Thank you, very right. No air exchanges in any traditional sense but it’s a lot of air pushed around. But I just can’t do to-the-exterior-exhaust air for the noise and light suppression needs. Six developing iterations over a few months has left a smell. I’ll down several bottles of Mistolene first, the bath and sinks are otherwise rarely used, perhaps scent emanates from them… clinging to the plumbing. BTW, Mistolene added to the laundry helps, Vaughn aka The Darkroom Dweller..

Sunday Adelaja (mega church pastor in Kyiv) said, “To partake in the consequence of a law is to violate it.”

Just because you can no smell it, does no mean it's no in the air you are breathing.

I have a friend that has a severe low tolerance to chemistries, including fragrances, walls out gassing, etc and she taught me that it's no the smell that is the main danger but those chemicals that compose the air we are breathing.

Ventilation and filtration of the air is more important than the actual non-toxic smells!

Take that for what it's worth

An afterthought suggest itself to me fo you.

If you can manage to build a long box or tube out of some #3 coffee cans and install a, or, some small fans, table top or computer/electronic types, with an outlet or old cell phone charger power supplies, that pulls in air from directly above your sink, you could also use activated charcoal in powders on fine wire screens, stacked above each other with out venting placed above the air inlet and screens, the charcoal would likely clear enough organic chemistry out of the inclosed air stream to make the smell issue disappear,balong with some of the chemistry in the air, in a small space.

You could even built a vertical unit with a small hood above you problem trays of chemicals.

The hardest part would be sourcing the activated charcoal and building stacking trays with a good exit vent air filter to keep even the smallest particles of dust, in the unit, away from your darkroom work and enlargers.

Even a typical round, plastic stacking dehydrator with extra trays would do and might be cheap enough to simply use instead of building a unit from scratch.

This one below, is similar to my dehydrator, and spare trays are cheap and well made, you might even find a working one in a thrift shop, and save even more money, and set it up for your situation and needs.

This evasion includes suspending it upside down for better circulation of the troubled, the clean airs

Nesco FD-79 Snackmaster Pro Digital Food Dehydrator for Snacks, Fruit, Beef Jerky, Meat, Vegetables & Herbs, Gray, 4 Trays​

I have always found Fixer to be the smell that permeates the hands, and persists for a long time after darkroom sessions. Perhaps the fact that sulfer compound (sodium thiosulfate, ammonium thiosulfate) is the major active component of fixer has a lot to do with this. I don't have a solution to the smell issue, but continuous exhaust ventilation certainly helps keep the room itself fresher smelling.
As for not using a fan due to the light-tight need for a darkroom, remember light only travels in STRAIGHT LINES. If light has to negotiate any kind of multiple bend (a 'maze') it will not get into the darkroom!

consulting the MSDS for two fixers advertised as 'oderless' shows ammonium thiosulfate as the major component, so perhaps use of ammonium thiosulfate fixer would be an improvement over what you have been using.

Rrrgcy said:

there’s always serious volumes of constant cool air conditioning air running into/thru the house

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But that's mostly/only recirculation, right? Or do you have an aircon setup that sucks in (hot & humid) air from outside the house? Not sure how things are commonly done out there in the US/Fl, but around here, aircon systems do not offer ventilation. Eventually you just end up with cool, but stale air. Actual ventilation would help - but may be problematic where you live.

Maybe, as Eli suggests, you could do something with filtering - but it would be one heck of a filtration system (using activated charcoal) you'd have to install in your home to get rid of smells. Not sure if that would be feasible.

wiltw said:

consulting the MSDS for two fixers advertised as 'oderless' shows ammonium thiosulfate as the major component

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All rapid fixers use ammonium thiosulfate. The thing of 'odorless' fixers is that they are either neutrally buffered, or (more commonly) acidic fixers that use citric acid instead of acetic acid. Indeed, that's an excellent start. Also use citric acid (odorless) stop bath to cut down the smell. Note that neutral or alkaline rapid fixers are likely to reek of ammonia due to the degradation of ammonium thiosulfate. From a perspective of smells, an odorless acidic rapid fixer makes the most sense.
Selenium toner does indeed smell (ammonia), so best take your prints to be toned outside if you want to get rid of that smell. Reusing selenium toner is (1) environmentally friendly since it cuts down waste and (2) tends to reduce the ammonia smell - but it takes a few sessions before it's mostly gone, and it never quite goes away entirely in my experience.
Direct sepia toning, if relevant here, should of course not be done within the house. Either do it outside, or use an odorless thiocarbamide/thiourea sepia toner.

Given the problematic ventilation and filtration situation, I'd put my money as much as possible on prevention; i.e. odorless chemistry. In a B&W environment, it's possible to keep the smell within reasonable limits this way.

It just seems to me that your circumstances as you describe them do not permit any kind of alterations that are so far proposed here to the bathroom in question.

So has anyone else complained about the smell such as daughter or mommy who seems key in all of this as she appears to have the ability to shut you down( or was that just a joke)

You seem to have done all you can in your circumstances

If sounds as if your circumstances permit only film development but on the other hand you mention selenium so I assume that occasionally you print and tone. Is so then living in Florida may permit toning outside when you have a "giant room called the whole of the Earth in which to exhaust the fumes. Give selenium toning a try outside and see how much that helps

Oh and can you open windows after your sessions? If so that's worth a try.

Failing all of that then you are left with masking the smell as you are doing There are some pretty strong masking liquids out there

Best of luck

pentaxuser

Use neutral/odourless fixer, citric acid for stop, and use smelly toners outside in the yard. There should be hardly any smell this way.

Get a 3M respirator. Tone outdoors. Citric acid stop bath, Ilford rapid fixer

mshchem said:

Get a 3M respirator. Tone outdoors. Citric acid stop bath, Ilford rapid fixer

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Good advice for the OP but his other concern is with his daughter and the person he referred to as mommy in respect of what are normal chemicals such as you state above. That's why I asked if daughter or mommy has raised the issue of smell

No doubt the OP will respond when he has a chance

pentaxuser

grain elevator said:

Use neutral/odourless fixer, citric acid for stop, and use smelly toners outside in the yard. There should be hardly any smell this way.

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+1

Rrrgcy said:

(Please move to appropriate forum)

New - and having bought some so-said “more odor-less” chems, I assumed I’d be scot free working from a small bathroom (two sink top, floor, and also using the attached small bathtub room). Those doors are closed when developing and everything is run down the sink and tub afterwards with a fair dose of water from the faucets. However, the bathroom has two doors - one to my daughter’s bedroom and the other to the office room. Uh, things still smell, sharply, and maybe it’s more from the Selenium toner, I’m guessing, but I have no idea. The chemicals are stored under the double sink in closed bottles with well-rinsed trays and while I don’t use fans, there’s always serious volumes of constant cool air conditioning air running into/thru the house and this bathroom and adjacent rooms. I don’t want my daughter‘s room to stink. Things do air-out but only so.

Mind you, I have a very sensitive sense of smell and the lingering scent has only been once remarked after mommy discovered I’ve been developing when they’re asleep (had about half a dozen sessions until I was found out)… she hasn’t thrown my stuff out yet. Yet.

What does one use to mask or kill smells? Something like Mistolene or other scent cleansers down the sinks and tub? Use Comet for sink tub scrub downs? Or do smells adhere to wall paint?

Click to expand...

I see you're in Florida so this might not be possible but if you can pre-cool the house and turn the AC off while working in the bathroom with the exhaust fan on you could partially avoid recirculating the air until the bathroom has cleared of chemistry odors.

They sell fans/exhaust that attach to windows. Maybe open the door to the office and attach one of those to a window to exhaust the smell/air. Once you're done, take it off and close the window. They're not expensive, I think they're about 50 bucks on amazon for dual fans.

pentaxuser said:

It just seems to me that your circumstances as you describe them do not permit any kind of alterations that are so far proposed here to the bathroom in question.

So has anyone else complained about the smell such as daughter or mommy who seems key in all of this as she appears to have the ability to shut you down( or was that just a joke)

You seem to have done all you can in your circumstances

If sounds as if your circumstances permit only film development but on the other hand you mention selenium so I assume that occasionally you print and tone. Is so then living in Florida may permit toning outside when you have a "giant room called the whole of the Earth in which to exhaust the fumes. Give selenium toning a try outside and see how much that helps

Oh and can you open windows after your sessions? If so that's worth a try.

Failing all of that then you are left with masking the smell as you are doing There are some pretty strong masking liquids out there

Best of luck

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

Some photographers also use selenium toner for the longevity of their negitives.

Intensification is of minor benefit, as I recall reading.

There are a plethora of activated charcoal filters out there, just Google "activated charcoal filters" and you'll see dozens of options, some expensive ones and some for around $15US, for all kinds of setups.

It looks like both Home Depot and Lowes will have them locally and you will be able to find or build what you need, as they are to most difficult parts to afford/make part of a small room filtration unit.

IMO.

A image is added to help picture this. Thanks to all. This is about paper developing, 21st century problems. I‘m a whiner.

I’m doing the daylight nikkor film development in the garage with the garage door open in the heat, and it’s working out fine. That I can do during daylight hours like lunchtime. Seems like all my neighbors don’t work, must be nice, but it’s tiring watching them peer at me wondering what BombMixing I must be doing. Colored liquids in plastic and amber colored bottles, stainless steel large and small containers, shaking, checking my watch, an alarm timer going off, pouring out stuff here and there, I’m wearing Nitrile gloves, then using a funnel to save liquids. Across the street neighbor put in hurricane windows super clear glass and he kept having bird kills, they fly right into them. One dove struck and somehow flew back crashed in front of my house on the sidewalk. I saw it, he walks over and he explained why it’s happening, it’s alive I pick it up, neck is part broken, can’t move it’s wings it’s partially paralyzed. I wring its neck and throw it in the garbage, the neighbor throws his hands up in the air exasperated and yells, “AYYYY!” and storms off into his house. I’m not sure film development helps to endear me to neighbors on my street.

The rest of the process has to happen at night. And when I say night I mean 9pm-1am.

I see folk recommend charcoal air filtration etc. I just don’t see me using anything w a fan w family trying to sleep And I do enough fabricating I don’t want to make hanging boxes filled w charcoal and rinkydinking a setup to make it work. I’m really need feng shui this whole affair.

My sense is no matter where inside I enlarge and develop it’ll cause some remnant smell because of the enclosed space, non circulating A/C, reliance on water sinks etc. I really can’t run fans outside even in an enclosed bathroom while family sleeps. There‘s one very small outside window in the bathtub room. I’m using 4x5 trays nearly filled to the brim for paper develop-stop-fix in the bathroom double-sink area then the larger 8x10” trays in the bathtub small room each tray half filled for the hypo toner and photoFlo w additional trays plain water to wet rinse and run water in. I may have too much liquids - the fixer when fixing does sometimes smell w a burn and I open the doors to air that out a bit. Concentrations are correct.

A. I know everyone has their issues. I’ll buy different chemicals come next needed order. I’ll likely try to move the entire bathtub system washing regimen and toning outside in the grass (either at side of the house‘s zero lot line w the outdoor faucet head, neighbors likely not going to like that, lest I do it w a hose and run it to the rear. This will be tricky in the dark, and not stirring neighbors with running water. And transporting wet paper in-out is not ideal at all. Again this is at night). And wash surfaces better w Mistolene added.

B. If I decide to scrap the whole interior dance, I’ll need to see what I can do for enlarge and develop, all of it, in the garage at night. I’d have a lot of seams and window to block, it’s quite warm even at night, will need to constantly alternate opening the big full garage door and all that noise every time, and when lights are turned on bugs and insects come in heavily. I can only store my enlarger and chems upstairs inside so that’s no fun back and forth transport w stairs. A garage solution is comical and I’ll frighteningly become a nut case.

Attached find image of layout. Blue are trays (trays in sinks are water and for running water) enlarger on floor. It’s very tight as you could imagine. I have to close all three bathroom doors when working to limit the noises I make, to keep any interior lights shut out, and to prevent the outdoor neighbor lamp light coming in through the small bathtub area window. A BB gun isn’t an option despite It being Florida. That’s tongue in cheek; my brother is hassling me a lot now for living in this state. He’s from Wash DC, no surprise. I send him postcard prints now and then and he never even recognizes their receipt nor thanks me for sending them…

I’ll first get some Mistolene and douse the sinks and tub plumbing and scrub the tub w a wash down etc. Maybe I’ll sponge the satin paint walls.Thats what that paint was for. Doesn’t make sense, the scent can’t just linger in the AIR week after week - the chems went down the tubes. So the odor HAS to lay remnant somewhere. I must be neglecting a full clean. I’ll report on results.. thanks for your well thought reasoned suggestions! MattKing/GrainElevator’s recommend is now plan B.

Are you using RC paper, or fibre based paper?

I’m using mostly fiber paper. I recognize I’m not getting it fully washed (ten mins+, really?!) given tint that develops on white edges. After fix I rinse under running water for a minute then leave it in static for about five mins. Then it goes in hypowash for a half a minute. Then I hand rinse under running water and into static water for five mins. Then it goes into the toner about five mins.

After toning, I rinse under running water about 30 secs then leave the prints in static water perhaps five minutes, then rinse again for a minute with running water. Into a tray with a touch of photoflo and I’m done.

My prints smell a tad. Oh, I do let them dry finish on the oriental floor rug in the office bedroom…. They do have a touch of wetness (photoflo) when I lay them down atop the rug. I’ll add that in the kiddo’s bedroom after the prints have dried (overnight) I’ve starched and ironed the prints to have them flat. So the ironing board stays in the bedroom closet. I use a bit of iron‘s wet spray pump when ironing and place the prints between paper towels which I throw away in garbage outside. And while I’ve moved the open air storage of finished dried prints around they have stayed stored inside the office time to time. Maybe I’m a contaminator.

I’ve just smelled some of my fiber prints and they smell.

After the first minute or so in the fixer, everything can be done in room light.
Perhaps you need to break your process into two parts, and do most of the washing, washaid, toning and post toning washing at different times.
And yes, that really isn't enough washing.
Why photoflo for prints - it isn't designed for them?

I really think the only logical solution is some kind of fan to exhaust fumes from the room while you are working.

To be clear, your bathroom does not already have an exhaust vent fan?

If not, is installing a bathroom vent a possibility? That may require making an opening in an exterior wall - not terribly complicated if you own the building, but if renting, may require permission from the landlord.

You could install an exhaust vent <like this> in your window. Would require making some kind of plywood insert to fit your open window, but no permanent modifications to the building would be needed.

For an exhaust fan to work, there needs to be some way for air to get into the room to replace the air the fan is pumping out. There is usually enough of a gap under doors to let in air from adjacent rooms - unless you have those blocked off to keep it dark. You can get light-tight louvers that let in air but not light. If you put the vent in an exterior window, that would be drawing in un-conditioned air - probably too hot and humid in Florida during much of the year. If you put the light-tight louvered vent in an interior door as opposed to a window, it would be easier to controll the temp and humidity in the bathroom.

I'm not sure how building codes in Florida are, but a bathroom should already have a ventilation fan that exits to the exterior. This should be accomplished via a sealed run of duct. Out here, it's insulated flex-duct that we use.

For clients out here I always try and exit fans through the roof. Some balk at the extra expense of making sure that step is done right, but it results in a shorter run of ducting 90% of the time. Otherwise, I try and find an out of the way gable or section of wall. If you have finished space above, the operation can be accomplished with only 2 holes in the ceiling; the hole for the fan, and a 16" x 16" over near the exit wall. (big enough to get hands and drill in)

My house built 2004 has a bathroom without a ventilation fan. But does have windows luckily. But I agree, a bathroom with no windows or vent fan does sound like it'd violate some sort of building code. Could check if it's in violation and if you're renting, you can demand to have one installed

Mask or chemical choice? First have a good exhaust fan. Your health may well depend on it.

I believe most building codes are local, so they vary widely from county to county and city to city. If you look at <this webpage> you will see many states may have recommended building codes on their books - but with comments like, "Local jurisdictions have option to enforce."