Maroon Bells: Ansel Adams Original Photographs, Story Behind the Image

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2023

sterioma said:
+1 on this.

ZS is about being aware of the light falling the scene and how you can somehow control the relationship of these tones in a print (within limits), by a careful choice of exposure, development and print controls.

"Shadows on zone III" is just a starting point, often for a literal translation of the tones as the eyes see them.

100% I agree. The trigger post shows an incomplete understanding of the Zone System. That is understandable because Ansel Adams writing is at best confusing. Further elaboration in books and on the web only make the understanding harder to reach. It took myself a number of reads and rereads of his books and finally I got a breakthrough when someone on APUG broke it down to a simple explanation - "'Shadows on zone III' is just a starting point, often for a literal translation of the tones as the eyes see them."

MattKing · Jan 11, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Tonal values? That's it? That's all visualization encompasses? Then I've been under a misunderstanding. I thought visualization was some sort of Zen feeling one has before pulling the shutter release that encompasses getting to the mystical ambiance and power of the scene and capturing it in photographs.

That Zen feeling is certainly important, but to get there you need to combine all sorts of things.
Visualization encompasses a lot of things. A very important part of visualization relates to tonal relationships in the presentation medium - and the Zone System gives you control of that part. It is intrinsically related to the characteristics of both the capture medium (the film) and the presentation medium (the print or slide). The Zone System is a technical tool used to put into effect an artistic vision of light, shadow and everything in between.
One combines the visualization of tones with the visualization of pictorial elements and the inclusion of interesting subject matter to get that Zen.
If you can't get the tones you visualize - no Zen. If you can't get the subject composition you visualize - no Zen. If you can't get the subject matter that interests - no Zen.

jeffreyg · Jan 11, 2023

Maybe twenty years ago when in Aspen never having seen A A's photograph I was at Maroon Bells and hiking up the trail carrying my camera and an aluminum tripod when a lightning storm started up. I stashed my tripod in the bushes thinking I could be holding a lightning rod. I dashed back to the car waiting for it to clear. After the weather cleared I went searching for my tripod and fortunately I found it. On my way back to the car I took this image. I'm sure there are thousands of similar ones of the same view out there.

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Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2023

jeffreyg said:
Maybe twenty years ago when in Aspen never having seen A A's photograph I was at Maroon Bells and hiking up the trail carrying my camera and an aluminum tripod when a lightning storm started up. I stashed my tripod in the bushes thinking I could be holding a lightning rod. I dashed back to the car waiting for it to clear. After the weather cleared I went searching for my tripod and fortunately I found it. On my way back to the car I took this image. I'm sure there are thousands of similar ones of the same view out there.

ABOUT | JEFFREY GLASSER

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Very nice and worthy of a large print on your walls.

Alex Benjamin · Jan 11, 2023

Chuck_P said:
if, that is, you are saying, that the prints tonal relationships are not the essence of the prints expressive value.

They are a great part of it, but, the Devil being in the details, the detail here is Alan's "only." Saying that the tonal relationships are the essence of the expressive value is a bit like saying the relationship between the notes is the essence of the expressive value of a piece of music. Of course it is, but to say that (to paraphrase Alan) it's all there is is misleading and oversimplifying. I've heard quite a few 18th and 19th century that are perfectly composed and immensely boring, as there are tons of "zone-system perfect" photos—i.e., in which the tonal relationships are beautifully crafted—that are totally void of any expressive content whatsoever.

Chuck_P said:
There's nothing shout the ZS that dictates all shadows must be full of detail.

Exactly. The principle is quite simple: you need shadow detail in your negative in order to be able to decide if you want shadow detail in your print.

MattKing · Jan 11, 2023

Alex Benjamin said:
Exactly. The principle is quite simple: you need shadow detail in your negative in order to be able to decide if you want shadow detail in your print.

The corollary as well: you need to carefully place and develop for nuanced highlight details in your negative, in order to decide if want nuanced highlight detail in your print.
With the latter being more frequently encountered in something like a snow scene or high key portrait.
With negatives, of course, there are a few more available tools available to deal with poorly resolved highlights than poorly resolved shadows.
But the over-arching idea is that you should visualize the final result and then, where appropriate, apply Zone System tools to help it come to pass.

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2023

MattKing said:
The corollary as well: you need to carefully place and develop for nuanced highlight details in your negative, in order to decide if want nuanced highlight detail in your print.
With the latter being more frequently encountered in something like a snow scene or high key portrait.
With negatives, of course, there are a few more available tools available to deal with poorly resolved highlights than poorly resolved shadows.
But the over-arching idea is that you should visualize the final result and then, where appropriate, apply Zone System tools to help it come to pass.

The information needs to be on the film. If the details are not on the negatives, there is no way to raise the details from the dead.

MattKing · Jan 11, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
The information needs to be on the film. If the details are not on the negatives, there is no way to raise the details from the dead.

Which of course has little to nothing to do with visualization or the Zone System.

Bill Burk · Jan 11, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
I don't know about the actual print, but the shot on the web shows trees completely black. So who needs shadow details? How does the zone system fit into his aesthetic look which frankly I like the way it is.

Those trees are not black. The details are there. This is from a calendar.

pentaxuser · Jan 12, 2023

It's a nice picture but I wonder what we'd have said if a Photrio member, say, someone called BB had placed this in the gallery say yesterday? I somehow doubt it would have generated 2 pages of posts.

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jan 12, 2023

pentaxuser said:
It's a nice picture but I wonder what we'd have said if a Photrio member, say, someone called BB had placed this in the gallery say yesterday? I somehow doubt it would have generated 2 pages of posts.

pentaxuser

If BB had taken the image in 1950 - 1 year before AA - and posted it to the internet back then ( ) then it probably would have.

pentaxuser · Jan 12, 2023

MattKing said:
If BB had taken the image in 1950 - 1 year before AA - and posted it to the internet back then ( ) then it probably would have.

OK Matt. I notice that on my screen your smilie while at least there, is not in the usual colour and has a strange square by it. Has the smilie section gone strange ?

I take the opportunity to say this as I have just posted a thread on my smilie problem - I have no smilies at all

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 12, 2023

I think that image is on one of his books that I have... Was it the collection of letters? Anyways, a very beautiful image. Sure would love to see a print!

BrianShaw · Jan 12, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I take the opportunity to say this as I have just posted a thread on my smilie problem - I have no smilies at all

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a stiff upper lip than a smilie.

pentaxuser · Jan 12, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a stiff upper lip than a smilie.

Still no smilies for me nor Bob who is also from the U.K. and only anaemic ones from those North of the 49th but the U.S. seems OK? Is there some kind of a message there

I have just added the It is the basic grin smilie If it doesn't turn into a smilie then we Brits may be doomed to be emotionless i.e. having a stiff upper lip

Hooray it worked but what do I do if I want to express any other emotion? My memory for smilie notation just isn't big enough.

pentaxuser

PS smilie problem now solved by Sean

sterioma · Jan 12, 2023

For what is worth I can see the smiles, but then again I am not Brit either

Mike Lopez · Jan 12, 2023

Bill Burk said:
Those trees are not black. The details are there. This is from a calendar.View attachment 326421

Yet another reminder that one should step away from the computer monitor or TV screen and look at real prints from time to time.

SchwinnParamount · Jan 13, 2023

"Though Ansel took plenty of time to discuss art and photography with his fellow creators—including a conversation that would lead to the founding of Aperture magazine"
It annoys the hell out of me that these writers cannot use the word "artist" anymore. They use "creator"? WTF? A draftsman creates a drawing. A brick mason creates a wall. And I could go on. Is there something politically incorrect or "un-woke" about calling an artist an "artist"?
This shit happens at my office too. I am a Technical Writer and not an artist. The assholes in HR insist that I am a "creator". I am NOT.

Philippe-Georges · Jan 13, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
One cannot judge on most photographs posted on the internet.

This is so painfully true...

takilmaboxer · Jan 25, 2023

Visualization is a simple concept. You're standing in front of a scene and visualizing what the print will look like.
The Zone System is simply a way to ensure that the negative will have the information you need to make that print. There is no absolute rule that shadows go on zone 3. You can place them on zone 6 if you choose. But good luck printing the highlights.
It's easy to fall down a rabbit hole with the Zone System. Just get the information on the negative and you can make the print any way you like. Consider AA's classic "Moonrise". He had virtually no time to think about the exposure, he had no meter on his person, so he calculated the exposure in his head using what he knew about the luminance of the Moon. The negative turned out very thin in the shadows, and his prints of the negative evolved very much over time. The early prints are a pretty literal interpretation of the neg while the later prints are dramatic. His only concern at the time of exposure was to get the info on the neggie. I'll bet both Drew and Vaughn have been in that position before.

Philippe-Georges · Jan 26, 2023

SchwinnParamount said:
"Though Ansel took plenty of time to discuss art and photography with his fellow creators—including a conversation that would lead to the founding of Aperture magazine"
It annoys the hell out of me that these writers cannot use the word "artist" anymore. They use "creator"? WTF? A draftsman creates a drawing. A brick mason creates a wall. And I could go on. Is there something politically incorrect or "un-woke" about calling an artist an "artist"?
This shit happens at my office too. I am a Technical Writer and not an artist. The assholes in HR insist that I am a "creator". I am NOT.

In French we have an expression, more a (officinaal-) designation actually, 'artisan-artiste' meaning: more than 'just' a craftsman (in hope that I translated "artisan" rather wel) and nearly an artist; it's a nuance somewhere in the middle...

Maroon Bells: Ansel Adams Original Photographs, Story Behind the Image

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Maroon Bells: Ansel Adams Original Photographs, Story Behind the Image

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