Manual Jobo 1500 tank rotary processing

[Michael Mutmansky]

Folks,

Over the years, I've done a lot of processing of film in spiral tanks (inversion) and Jobo CPP machines so I'm familiar with both approaches. However, I've never done a rotary process manually with rollfilm. I no longer have the CPP2 that I used to have and I'm going to use the 1500 series tanks for my 120 film processing and the plan was to use the Jobo manual rotary rollers.

So looking at the literature (and the web as well), I don't actually see what a good procedure is for doing this when you aren't actually able to be rolling the film as you pour in the chems (as the CPP/CPE machines do).

So I have two questions... the first is what is the MAXIMUM liquid you can put into a tank when doing rotary processing? The minimums are stated on the tanks, but the maximiums are really just based on the practical amount that will go in before the liquid wants to all dump out as you roll it? I'm guessing the cap will be necessary to ensure it doesn't leak everywhere...

Second, what is the process for filling the tank to avoid development "high water" marks from the initial pour? For inversion, I used to just have the developer in the tank ready and then I would drop the film spools in, put the cap on, and then do the initial inversions and bubble tap. However, with rotary, that won't work necessarily because there isn't enough liquid to cover the film completely, so you could end up with marks from the developer in the short time it takes to get the film in, the cap on, and then get it on its side and rolling.

The other approach is to have the film in the tank with the lid on and pour the developer in after, but I think that would be even longer from start to finish and again, could have marks from the developer not covering everything fairly rapidly.

I can test this (clearly, what ever I do, I will be observing and adjusting based on my results), but I don't want to be messing about if there is an approach that is clearly successful. Please let me know and I'll adopt it for my initial development trials. Oddly, there isn't anything on YT that covers manual rotary development that I had found that addresses this...


Thanks,


---Michael

 

[McDiesel]

When I had a JOBO processor without a lift, I would pour the minimum amount of chemistry (as stated on a tank) and then place it on the rollers. I never had any issues with "high water" marks. The minimal amount of liquid required for rotation is quite small, so it pours very quickly, a few seconds did not create any visible separation.

Over time I moved away from minimal-chemistry rolling approach taken by JOBO-style machines. It contradicts some manufacturer's datasheets (minimum amount of developer per roll), it's not B&W friendly (B&W benefits from pausing), and its only advantage (cost) goes away if you replenish. So I switched to full-tank, inversion-based automated agitation for both color and B&W.

[EDIT] another hard-to-troubleshoot problem I had with rotation was occasional surge marks. They weren't consistent or overly visible, but every once in a while I would notice a few very faint marks on my scans, and then they would disappear for months. Kodak Gold was especially prone to this. There were quite a few threads I found on photrio on this also (without a definite cure). Moving away from alternating rotation solved that completely.

Basically, JOBO-style rotation agitation has several issues, but "high water" marks weren't one of them.

 

[shutterfinger]

So I have two questions... the first is what is the MAXIMUM liquid you can put into a tank when doing rotary processing? The minimums are stated on the tanks, but the maximiums are really just based on the practical amount that will go in before the liquid wants to all dump out as you roll it? I'm guessing the cap will be necessary to ensure it doesn't leak everywhere...

I use 25xx tanks on the roller base. A single 25xx tank states 270ml of chemical minimum but 300 gives better results. With the tank on its side enough chemical to to just reach the center column will be sufficient and more chemical will just increase the weight. And, yes the cap must be on the tank.

Second, what is the process for filling the tank to avoid development "high water" marks from the initial pour?

Jobo tanks require a 3 to 5 minute pre wash. With the tank upright pour the water in and fill the tank to the top. Prep the developer, Agitate the tank 2 or 3 inversions then pour out the water. The antihalation coating will come off and discolor the water, do not reuse this water. Pour the developer in holding the tank at a slight angle, put the cap on, lay the tank on the roller base and start rolling and timing the development.
Reversing the direction of the rotation is necessary to prevent streaking. Rotation should be equal in each direction for the development time. I go from fingertip to palm of hand, switching hands to keep a constant rotation then I switch to palm of hand to fingertip turning the tank in the opposite direction every minute. A partial minute in one direction will not affect outcome. The alternative is to stop, pick the tank up, and lay it back down with the lid end on the opposite side of the roller base.
The 10 to 15 seconds it takes to pour the developer in, put the cap on, and lay the tank on its side is 3% to 5% of a 5 minute development time and should not create noticeable difference in development and on longer times it will not. Fill the tank with stop bath, wash water, fixer as rotation is not necessary for these steps but can be used if desired.
I develop both 4x5 sheet film and 120 roll film in my 25xx tanks.

 

[MattKing]

I use replenished developer - X-Tol currently - and Paterson Super System 4 tanks that hold 3x135/2x120 reels at a time.
I use a reversing Beseler rotary agitator for the first 30 seconds of the development stage, and for the entire duration of all the rest of the steps.
I pour all chemicals in through the light trap.
For developer, I use one litre of chemical - the recommended volume for a reel filled tank.
For all the other steps, I use 650 ml - more than enough to cover half of the reels when they are on their side and rotating.
The only reason I limit the rotary agitation part of my development to the first 30 seconds of development, followed by hand inversion agitation for the rest, is that I regularly load two 120 reels on the same AP clone of Paterson 120 reel. During the development stage, the film can really wander within the reels, resulting in potential overlap. During the rest of the process, the film seems to stay put, so rotary agitation works fine.
I've tailored my times to that workflow, so I use it even when I have 35mm or fewer 120 films in the tank.
If I didn't load two 120 films into the same reel, I would just use rotary agitation throughout, with appropriate adjustments to times.
I've even use a similar workflow with steel reels, but it makes an infernal racket, so I haven't used the setup below for a while:

 

[shutterfinger]

Over time I moved away from minimal-chemistry rolling approach taken by JOBO-style machines. It contradicts some manufacturer's datasheets (minimum amount of developer per roll), it's not B&W friendly (B&W benefits from pausing), and its only advantage (cost) goes away if you replenish. So I switched to full-tank, inversion-based automated agitation for both color and B&W.

[EDIT] another hard-to-troubleshoot problem I had with rotation was occasional surge marks. They weren't consistent or overly visible, but every once in a while I would notice a few very faint marks on my scans, and then they would disappear for months. Kodak Gold was especially prone to this. There were quite a few threads I found on photrio on this also (without a definite cure). Moving away from alternating rotation solved that completely.

I always use the minimum amount of developer required for the film being processed even if it means using more than the minimum amount of chemical listed on the Jobo tank.
A 10% increase in developer volume solves the streaking problem with rotation processing.
Smooth, steady motions keeps the chemical in a smooth flow, rough handling causes splashing.
Many may be attributing their poor handling/processing techniques to the tank system when problems occur.

 

[AgX]

So looking at the literature (and the web as well), I don't actually see what a good procedure is for doing this when you aren't actually able to be rolling the film as you pour in the chems (as the CPP/CPE machines do).

All Jobo rotary processors require the tank filled upright and then installed horizontally in the processor. Unless you got the lift attached (which not all their processors take, and it was offered much later anyway).

Exactly same procedure you have to follow, when you roll the tank along a table edge or on a roller base.

Volumes then are same as on a processor.


The issue you refer to was approached by Jobo at their print drums with those beakers incorporated into the caps. No such was designed for the film tanks. Likely as such beaker would take space otherwise employed by reels and as Jobo did not see such fluid-level mark issue with films on reels.

In case you do not trust the design, fill the tank as for inversion processing, use a cap with lid and rotate it this way. However with such high fluid level you might get other issues, from lesser fluid flow along the reels.
And as long as you use no tempering bath, the advantage of rotational processing is just the saving of bath volume. Filling the tank completely and rolling it then makes no sense at all.

 

[pentaxuser]

All Jobo rotary processors require the tank filled upright and then installed horizontally in the processor. Unless you got the lift attached (which not all their processors take, and it was offered much later anyway).

Exactly same procedure you have to follow, when you roll the tank along a table edge or on a roller base.

Volumes then are same as on a processor.


The issue you refer to was approached by Jobo at their print drums with those beakers incorporated into the caps. No such was designed for the film tanks. Likely as such would beaker would take space otherwise employed by the reels and as Jobo did not see such fluid-level mark issue with films on reels.

In case you do not trust the design, fill the tank as for inversion processing, use a cap with lid and rotate it this way. However with such high fluid level you might get other issues, from lesser fluid flow along the reels.
And as long as you use no tempering bath, the advantage of rotational processing is just the saving of bath volume. Filling the tank completely and rolling it then makes no sense at all.

All of the above makes complete sense to me and that is exactly the way my Jobo CPE works Unless you can roll continuously and smoothly on a level basis and change the direction of rotation as happen with a CPE then rotary processing may save some developer but runs the risk of introduce other potential problems.

pentaxuser

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

OK, good enough to convince me on this. I think it's clear that I don't need to fret the filling marks at all.

I'm going to test a few developers and at least one of them (XTOL) specifically recommends not doing a prewash before the developer. I dont know what the reason is, but I'll look into that a little.

The minimum amount of stock developer solution (per the developer spec sheets) is an issue and I'm not concerned about going over the minimum solution values on the tanks at all, but I just wanted to figure out how much I could go over without causing issues. For example as I read it, XTOL wants 100ml of stock solution per roll of film, so if I wanted to do straight, I would need at least 600ml in a 1526 tank (three 120 roll spools, six total rolls), which meets the minimum fill numbers from Jobo (570ml). If I wanted to do 1:1, I'd need 1200ml of developer. At that point, I might as well just do inversion development, because I am just about filling the tank up, and that alows me to get a little longer development time and a bit higher acutance in the negatives due to the much less constant motion of the developer fluid.

That issue isn't really a concern for Rodinal or HC110 I don't think... it is so concentrated that I'll be able to do the developing at a reasonable dilution and not have it be a full tank (or maybe it will be a full tank, but that'll be fine as I could just do them all inversion anyway). I'm not wedded to rotary, but I would prefer to not be dumping excessinve chemicals in the drain if I can help it. The XTOL is specifically on my list because of the relatively lower risk and concern of the compunds in it.

 

[AgX]

I do not remember these beakers in the print drums being a topic here. So actually I wanted to start a thread on this once.

 

[MattKing]

For those quantities, replenished X-Tol makes so much sense!

 

[shutterfinger]

When I used Xtol I had no issues with a pre wash in my Jobo tanks.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I'm going to test a few developers and at least one of them (XTOL) specifically recommends not doing a prewash before the developer. I dont know what the reason is, but I'll look into that a little...

The only reason for "no prewash" with XTOL is because Kodak's testing was done that way. XTOL works fine with a prewash, but the times will be different. That straight from Dick and Sylvia many years ago (the inventors of XTOL). I always use a prewash, except for certain Ilford roll films when inversion agitating.

...I could just do them all inversion anyway). I'm not wedded to rotary, but I would prefer to not be dumping excessinve chemicals in the drain if I can help it...

I own CPE-2+, CPA-2 and CPP-2 processors, all purchased new, as well as a wide variety of Jobo tanks (1500 series and 2500 series) and drums. I process sheet film in Expert drums, and wouldn't do it any other way.

With rolls, no combination of black and white film, developer, processor and technique has ever completely eliminated "road ruts" for me. Therefore, I develop 35mm and 120 in full tanks using inversion agitation. The volume of chemicals is not that much different than rotary in the same tanks. There's no way it can be described as an "excessive" quantity discharged to sewerage. I strongly suggest you embark on your medium format adventure without the unnecessary complication of rotary processing film.

 

[mshchem]

I use 25xx tanks on the roller base. A single 25xx tank states 270ml of chemical minimum but 300 gives better results. With the tank on its side enough chemical to to just reach the center column will be sufficient and more chemical will just increase the weight. And, yes the cap must be on the tank.

Jobo tanks require a 3 to 5 minute pre wash. With the tank upright pour the water in and fill the tank to the top. Prep the developer, Agitate the tank 2 or 3 inversions then pour out the water. The antihalation coating will come off and discolor the water, do not reuse this water. Pour the developer in holding the tank at a slight angle, put the cap on, lay the tank on the roller base and start rolling and timing the development.
Reversing the direction of the rotation is necessary to prevent streaking. Rotation should be equal in each direction for the development time. I go from fingertip to palm of hand, switching hands to keep a constant rotation then I switch to palm of hand to fingertip turning the tank in the opposite direction every minute. A partial minute in one direction will not affect outcome. The alternative is to stop, pick the tank up, and lay it back down with the lid end on the opposite side of the roller base.
The 10 to 15 seconds it takes to pour the developer in, put the cap on, and lay the tank on its side is 3% to 5% of a 5 minute development time and should not create noticeable difference in development and on longer times it will not. Fill the tank with stop bath, wash water, fixer as rotation is not necessary for these steps but can be used if desired.
I develop both 4x5 sheet film and 120 roll film in my 25xx tanks.

Are you doing extended presoak to warm tank for color processing? 3-5 minutes, while it shouldn't hurt anything, seems a bit long. The sensitizing dye on color film is why I do a 100°F presoak on C-41, it's amazing how much color comes out in a single 60 second soak. I've concured the purple stuff in T-grain Kodak films by using a good fresh rapid fixer, followed by Kodak Hypo clearing agent, 2 minutes (this really helps with the purple). Then a nice wash. I keep wash at minimum of 68-70°F

 

[mshchem]

OK, good enough to convince me on this. I think it's clear that I don't need to fret the filling marks at all.

I'm going to test a few developers and at least one of them (XTOL) specifically recommends not doing a prewash before the developer. I dont know what the reason is, but I'll look into that a little.

The minimum amount of stock developer solution (per the developer spec sheets) is an issue and I'm not concerned about going over the minimum solution values on the tanks at all, but I just wanted to figure out how much I could go over without causing issues. For example as I read it, XTOL wants 100ml of stock solution per roll of film, so if I wanted to do straight, I would need at least 600ml in a 1526 tank (three 120 roll spools, six total rolls), which meets the minimum fill numbers from Jobo (570ml). If I wanted to do 1:1, I'd need 1200ml of developer. At that point, I might as well just do inversion development, because I am just about filling the tank up, and that alows me to get a little longer development time and a bit higher acutance in the negatives due to the much less constant motion of the developer fluid.

That issue isn't really a concern for Rodinal or HC110 I don't think... it is so concentrated that I'll be able to do the developing at a reasonable dilution and not have it be a full tank (or maybe it will be a full tank, but that'll be fine as I could just do them all inversion anyway). I'm not wedded to rotary, but I would prefer to not be dumping excessinve chemicals in the drain if I can help it. The XTOL is specifically on my list because of the relatively lower risk and concern of the compunds in it.

I recently bought a Jobo 1500 large kit from B&H. It's like a big box full of goodies for 200 USD. Cheap these days, you get a bunch of stuff, I was surprised how nice the roller base is. I would get tired of rolling for long film development but it is a nice device.

 

[shutterfinger]

In the instructions that came with my tanks it says to use a 5 minute prewash for B&W films. I just fill the tank with water then mix/measure the developer, set the timer, and any other prep I need to do to make the session go smoothly. I bought my tanks in the last half of the 1990's.
I have done very little color processing but when I do I use water the processing temperature or 2 or 3 degrees higher to compensate for the temperature drop that can occur in cold weather warming the tank and reel.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

There's no way it can be described as an "excessive" quantity discharged to sewerage. I strongly suggest you embark on your medium format adventure without the unnecessary complication of rotary processing film.

Yes, that's exactly what I am thinking... After doing the math on this, with 1500 tanks, there doesn't seem to be any point to doing rotary.

I'm used to the expert drums (4x5 and 8x10 back when they made them) and also the print drums for ULF, and those were so large that rotary made a lot of sense. Even with 2500 drums, It'd probably make sense, but with these small drums, I'm almost full up anyway (I just measured... I need 1350ml to fill the 1526, and 1200ml for a minimum for XTOL 1:1, Rodinal wants 936 @ 1:25, and HC110 wants 1152 for Dil. B @ 6ml per roll).

 

[James McClean]

To OP: I have experienced high water marks manually rolling in JOBO 1500 series tanks with minimum tank volumes, but only in B/W positive processing and some of my E-6. The very active Fogging 2nd Developer caused uneven development in B/W positives. It hasn't been an issue since I started using full volume, and pour in time with JOBO tank is trivial in my experience, although I do generally use dilute 1st Developer for reasons of economy and the consistency of one shot use for EI testing.



For the E-6 and C-41 I had trouble getting the tank to ride on an even keel in the water bath using minimum volume. It is a real balancing act to have sufficient water level in the water bath vessel to satisfy a TCS-1000 water heater. I now use a submerged digitally controlled aquarium heater, only using the TCS-1000 sous vide as supplemental heater as it can heat a large volume quickly, though it has a tendency to splash water about.



I have been spooling two (2) rolls 120 film per Jobo 1501 reels, properly using the red clip to separate roll ends. However, maybe 5% of the hundred rolls I processed last go around suffered overlap. I tried a mix of rotation and inversion, would have to consult notes to see which was more prone to failure.



I am about to set up my lab for another round of processing. My gut is telling me to just use a single roll of film per reel, and a minimum volume of 500 ml per roll of 120, pretty much to use my Jobo 1500 series tanks like I would have used steel tanks and reels in the past.



I have however come to appreciate Jobo tanks for manual processing, not so much for economy, but because: 1. Dichromate bleach is rough on steel.

2. Pour in/off time is so much faster and more efficient, easier to get reused chemistry back into bottles, especially Jobo wide mouth bottles.

3. C-41 blows lids off my steel tanks!!! Bless those orange "Drückausgleichung" lids!!



I have noticed Photo Flo gunked up my new plastic reels after just two batches. Now using distilled water only and never any drying streaks.



Since I have decided to use full volume, I also am wondering about the efficiency of rotary agitation. It sounds like rotating a full tank is less efficient, even using a back and forth motion. I suspect inversion was causing the roll ends overlapping and sometimes outside roll even coming off reel and sticking to side of tank as a result of erratic flow currents. JOBO system is after all designed for rotary processors using minimum volumes. I have decided to test only using a single roll of 120 per reel, full tank volume to insure sufficient developer activity, and use inverted agitation which has a long history of success in steel. I consider the JOBO system as Plastic Fantastic Lover to use as I did steel reels for many decades.



Anyone else had problems with spooling two (2) 120 rolls per JOBO 1500 series reels? I considered upgrading to JOBO 2500 series reels and tanks as they mention the greater efficiency of chemical flow due to wider reel spacing in their specs. But I don't see any cost saving if I use full volume in a 2500 series tank, just the opposite! Suppose I could use two rolls film in 500ml with rotation. But looks to me like the 2520 tank is too short for the JOBO or Stark rollers I have. I had to glue counter weights in base of a 1520 tank to keep it on the roller, and level in a water bath.



Sorry for the long rant, but I see I am not the only one vexed by using JOBO tanks other than as intended in JOBO processors. In spite of speaking fluent German, I find precious little useful information coming from JOBO themselves. Fortunately CineStill addresses some of these concerns on their web site.



I very much appreciate the sense of community on this forum. Let's keep analogue alive, even if we have to make our own dry plates!

 

[AgX]

JOBO system is after all designed for rotary processors using minimum volumes.

Not all. Or it depends what you mean by "Jobo system"... The smaller Jobo film tanks only from series 1500 and 2500 on were designed from the start with rotary processing in mind, the 2500 even being a pure rotational system.

 

[pentaxuser]

As far as Jobo tank minimum quantities for both inversion and rotary processing are concerned, it has always struck me that what the late Roger Hicks used to say makes sense, namely why would Jobo not quote safe quantities? I can't see any reason why it would be in Jobo's interest to quote other than quantities it knows are safe?

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use 25xx tanks on the roller base. A single 25xx tank states 270ml of chemical minimum but 300 gives better results. With the tank on its side enough chemical to to just reach the center column will be sufficient and more chemical will just increase the weight. And, yes the cap must be on the tank.

Jobo tanks require a 3 to 5 minute pre wash. With the tank upright pour the water in and fill the tank to the top. Prep the developer, Agitate the tank 2 or 3 inversions then pour out the water. The antihalation coating will come off and discolor the water, do not reuse this water. Pour the developer in holding the tank at a slight angle, put the cap on, lay the tank on the roller base and start rolling and timing the development.
Reversing the direction of the rotation is necessary to prevent streaking. Rotation should be equal in each direction for the development time. I go from fingertip to palm of hand, switching hands to keep a constant rotation then I switch to palm of hand to fingertip turning the tank in the opposite direction every minute. A partial minute in one direction will not affect outcome. The alternative is to stop, pick the tank up, and lay it back down with the lid end on the opposite side of the roller base.
The 10 to 15 seconds it takes to pour the developer in, put the cap on, and lay the tank on its side is 3% to 5% of a 5 minute development time and should not create noticeable difference in development and on longer times it will not. Fill the tank with stop bath, wash water, fixer as rotation is not necessary for these steps but can be used if desired.
I develop both 4x5 sheet film and 120 roll film in my 25xx tanks.

The maximum I use for my 1540 tank and a Jobo processor is 500ml although it can take a liter.