Manual Focus SLRS with "Full information" viewfinders

[blockend]

I hate to say it but there is at least a 10% chance after all I this I end up with 10 35mm SLRs and after evaluating them all I decide that my film use will just be medium format and I sell them all

The price of a camera is a good guide to its desirability among the masses. Develop a fondness for undesirable cameras and your wallet will thank you. You may not get admiring glances from your peers, but the photos won't be any worse.

 

[RLangham]

I had an MX, the finder was useless to me - felt like my eyes were going to roll out of my head trying to check the corners. The EOS 3 may by .72X on paper but it's still super bright and clear and just "feels roomy." My EOS Rebels are all ~.72X as well but definitely feel dim and confined by comparison.

Sounds like eye relief. The MX may have much less eye relief than some cameras with less magnification. Have you ever used a Nikkormat FT series?

 

[RLangham]

Just a point of trivia given that you want to have a functioning meter, but the aperture and shutter speed readouts in the Pentax MX and Nikon FM are purely mechanical (shutter speed disc visible in finder) or optical (lens aperture ring visualized in the finder through a periscope). They don't depend on anything electronic and remain functional even if the batteries are dead.

EDIT: If I'm remembering right, that's true of the Nikon F2 with Photomic meter prism as well.

It should be true of most of the F2 meters. F2SB has both as transparent numbers on opaque disks lit by windows on the top of the prism, but it can backlight them fairly brightly on a full battery, if needed... I know some of the other F2's have a Judas window (periscope) for the aperture, which is not as good since the camera can't add light to it.

Of course there was one of the Kodak Retina Reflexes that had a Judas window that showed both on adjacent rings around the lens, and I thought that was cool.

 

[PFGS]

Sounds like eye relief. The MX may have much less eye relief than some cameras with less magnification. Have you ever used a Nikkormat FT series?

I do have an original Nikkormat. Prism magnification is reasonably glasses friendly but the scratch-o-genic knurled eyepiece trim ring is not. I keep the absurd oversized Ed-E eyecup on my EOS 3 and love that I can jam half my face into it. Off the top of my head, the Canon T70 is a MF SLR that I like the finder on; it's 0.85x magnification, 92% coverage.

 

[Les Sarile]

I had an MX, the finder was useless to me - felt like my eyes were going to roll out of my head trying to check the corners. The EOS 3 may by .72X on paper but it's still super bright and clear and just "feels roomy." My EOS Rebels are all ~.72X as well but definitely feel dim and confined by comparison.

Correct, more magnification means less eye relief and less magnification means more eye relief. Fortunately with AF, you won't depend on the viewfinder to achieve critical focus whereas on a manual camera you do.

Of course with tiny viewfinders, you can use magnifiers to attain huge magnifications of the center area for much better manual focusing.

With manual focus cameras you are stuck with the viewfinder as well as the focusing screen if they are not interchangeable. As above, you can also use magnifiers.

However, cameras with interchangeable viewfinders and focusing screens - such as the Pentax LX, you may get to choose both. Additionally, you have a choice of perspective with the addition of the waist level.

With the FE-1 you get the massive 1.35X magnification, 1.0 with the FB-1 + FD-1, 0.9X with FA-1, FA-2, FF-1, 0.84X with the FB-1 + FD-2 and the most eye relief with the FB-1 + FC-1 sportsfinder. The FA-1, FA-2 and FE-1 also have diopter adjustments.

BTW, unlike other aperture priority interchangeable VF cameras, you can actually use the LX without a viewfinder - cheap waist level option, because the full info are visible and the meter is not influenced by external light.

 

[Huss]

I had an MX, the finder was useless to me - felt like my eyes were going to roll out of my head trying to check the corners..

Yep, same experience with my MX. Having that 'huge' vf is way overrated if you can't see the corners easily/quickly. And that is w/o wearing glasses! But people like to go on about it.
I bought the DK17 magnifier for my F6 as so many said it made a huge difference, but quickly took it off as with it you cannot easily see the whole image, nor the exposure info on the bottom.

 

[flavio81]

It should be true of most of the F2 meters. F2SB has both as transparent numbers on opaque disks lit by windows on the top of the prism, but it can backlight them fairly brightly on a full battery, if needed...

Agree.

 

[CMoore]

Yep, same experience with my MX. Having that 'huge' vf is way overrated if you can't see the corners easily/quickly. And that is w/o wearing glasses! But people like to go on about it.
I bought the DK17 magnifier for my F6 as so many said it made a huge difference, but quickly took it off as with it you cannot easily see the whole image, nor the exposure info on the bottom.

Pentax was the only "Major Brand" SLR i never owned.
I always wanted to, but it just never happened.
Anyway......didn't Pentax also make a Model-KX that was a very good camera, or am i mistaken.?
Thank You

 

[RLangham]

Correct, more magnification means less eye relief and less magnification means more eye relief. Fortunately with AF, you won't depend on the viewfinder to achieve critical focus whereas on a manual camera you do.

I think the pentaprism optics can give both high magnification and decent eye relief. Consider the Nikon F2SB (and probably the other F2 pentaprisms.) I would say the magnification is slightly less than the OM-2 and slightly more than the K1000 and the coverage is probably the highest of any SLR, and yet it has great eye relief.

 

[Les Sarile]

Pentax was the only "Major Brand" SLR i never owned.
I always wanted to, but it just never happened.
Anyway......didn't Pentax also make a Model-KX that was a very good camera, or am i mistaken.?
Thank You

You are not mistaken . . .

 

[Chan Tran]

BTW, unlike other aperture priority interchangeable VF cameras, you can actually use the LX without a viewfinder - cheap waist level option, because the full info are visible and the meter is not influenced by external light.

You can use the Nikon F3 without the finder too. In fact I used to be able to focus without any viewfinder. Well can't do that any more.

 

[Les Sarile]

You can use the Nikon F3 without the finder too. In fact I used to be able to focus without any viewfinder. Well can't do that any more.

The shutter speed is shown in ultra tiny lcd so your eyes could be much better then mine if you can see it.
And of course you have to cover it as external light will influence the meter.

 

[Huss]

You are not mistaken . . .

I'm looking for a full working black KX... I have a full working black MX possibly for trade...

I have a black K2, and it really is a superb, underrated camera.
Interestingly the K2 has a much shorter, and more pleasant, film advance stroke than the KX or the MX.

 

[ronnies]

Ricoh XR-1 and XR-2 (and the 's' versions)

Ronnie

 

[skorpiius]

I wanted to thank everyone for your comments. I've now had a chance to play with some cameras that do or do not have full info viewfinders particularly in manual mode.

Some thoughts from my journey:

My complaint about a lot of older-school cameras that have an Auto and a Manual mode is the Manual mode is just the Auto mode disconnected from the shutter or aperture, eg with the Minolta XG-M the Auto is Aperture priority that shows you what shutter speed it is going to choose, Manual mode is the exact same mode as Av except it just tells you what shutter speed it would have picked without picking it. They also don't show in the viewfinder what you have actually picked so you have to remove your eye from the viewfinder to see what you need to adjust.

So my thought was that the solution to all of my complaints would be a similar camera that also shows what value you have picked. But I've realized what I also dislike is for AP cameras the way it tells you how much your exposure is off is it tells you what you need to change the shutter speed to. For SP cameras it tells you what you need to change your aperture to. I've realized in M I prefer to be told how many EVs I'm away from good exposure rather than always telling me to adjust my Aperture or always telling me to adjust my Shutter Speed depending on if it's an Av or Tv priority camera at heart. That doesn't really feel like 'manual'.

That all said I do find that if the calculated and chosen value is on the same scale that does give you a visual EV gap. Examples are the dual needle in the Nikon FE or the solid and flashing LEDs on the Minolta X-570. Both show you visually how many stops you are away from a good EV value which I quite like. I already have the FE and might check out that Minolta.

Thank you for reading my blog lol

 

[Huss]

Nothing compares to the Leica R8 or R9

Here, in manual mode, it shows exposure compensation (!) if set, meter pattern, meter mode, aperture to the 1/4 stop (!), distance from correct exposure to the 1/3 stop, shutter speed to the 1/2 stop(!) - here 1/12 sec is displayed, and of course how many exposures taken. If you use a flash, it will include info for that.

 

[Agulliver]

Praktica BX20S

You get the aperture selected, an LED indicator as to whether you're over/under exposing via the +/- selector and the range of shutter speeds from 1s to 1/1000s I think....with a solid LED on the selected shutter speed and a flashing one on the speed the camera would select. Aperture priority only.

 

[RLangham]

I wanted to thank everyone for your comments. I've now had a chance to play with some cameras that do or do not have full info viewfinders particularly in manual mode.

Some thoughts from my journey:

My complaint about a lot of older-school cameras that have an Auto and a Manual mode is the Manual mode is just the Auto mode disconnected from the shutter or aperture, eg with the Minolta XG-M the Auto is Aperture priority that shows you what shutter speed it is going to choose, Manual mode is the exact same mode as Av except it just tells you what shutter speed it would have picked without picking it. They also don't show in the viewfinder what you have actually picked so you have to remove your eye from the viewfinder to see what you need to adjust.

So my thought was that the solution to all of my complaints would be a similar camera that also shows what value you have picked. But I've realized what I also dislike is for AP cameras the way it tells you how much your exposure is off is it tells you what you need to change the shutter speed to. For SP cameras it tells you what you need to change your aperture to. I've realized in M I prefer to be told how many EVs I'm away from good exposure rather than always telling me to adjust my Aperture or always telling me to adjust my Shutter Speed depending on if it's an Av or Tv priority camera at heart. That doesn't really feel like 'manual'.

That all said I do find that if the calculated and chosen value is on the same scale that does give you a visual EV gap. Examples are the dual needle in the Nikon FE or the solid and flashing LEDs on the Minolta X-570. Both show you visually how many stops you are away from a good EV value which I quite like. I already have the FE and might check out that Minolta.

Thank you for reading my blog lol

Yes, I used to have a Minolta X series--the very last one, made in China at Seagull in the 90's or maybe even the 2000's. X-370S? Does that sound right?
I chafed at two things, though it had some nice features. Of course no DOF preview... and the LED display showing me how far off I was from the metered shutter speed. It's perfectly adequate, you understand, and in fact it almost replicates the functionality of an srT 101's match needle display (with a key difference too boring to explain here)... but somehow it always reminds me that I could be in aperture priority mode. The camera *wants* me to shut up and use aperture priority!

I sold it for 16 bucks, same as I bought it for, and sold the MD 50/1.7 that it came with for 30 bucks. Now of course I've just bought another one of that lens on another trashy AP minolta for 7 bucks, just to have it for my 101.

 

[Chan Tran]

The shutter speed is shown in ultra tiny lcd so your eyes could be much better then mine if you can see it.
And of course you have to cover it as external light will influence the meter.

My eyes was much better than they are now. I was 25 at the time. I could see the LCD well and well enough to focus accurately. Since I did night shot I don't need to shield the light. In fact I did it because I didn't have a tripod so I put the camera down on the ground and thus I had to remove the viewfinder to compose and focus.

 

[miha]

What a beauties!!

 

[skorpiius]

Nothing compares to the Leica R8 or R9

Here, in manual mode, it shows exposure compensation (!) if set, meter pattern, meter mode, aperture to the 1/4 stop (!), distance from correct exposure to the 1/3 stop, shutter speed to the 1/2 stop(!) - here 1/12 sec is displayed, and of course how many exposures taken. If you use a flash, it will include info for that.

Yes that's the advantage of getting into SLRs from the 1990s onwards, much more detailed viewfinder info. My Nikon F80, F100, and D300 all have a similar scale for EC
Kind of curious though if those Leicas might have been some of the first with that feature.

 

[skorpiius]

Yes, I used to have a Minolta X series--the very last one, made in China at Seagull in the 90's or maybe even the 2000's. X-370S? Does that sound right?
I chafed at two things, though it had some nice features. Of course no DOF preview... and the LED display showing me how far off I was from the metered shutter speed. It's perfectly adequate, you understand, and in fact it almost replicates the functionality of an srT 101's match needle display (with a key difference too boring to explain here)... but somehow it always reminds me that I could be in aperture priority mode. The camera *wants* me to shut up and use aperture priority!

I sold it for 16 bucks, same as I bought it for, and sold the MD 50/1.7 that it came with for 30 bucks. Now of course I've just bought another one of that lens on another trashy AP minolta for 7 bucks, just to have it for my 101.

Yes it's like those "If you lived here you'd already be home!" signs, except it's "If you just used the auto mode we provided we'd already have taken a shot with these settings"

 

[flavio81]

Correct, more magnification means less eye relief and less magnification means more eye relief. Fortunately with AF, you won't depend on the viewfinder to achieve critical focus whereas on a manual camera you do.

Of course with tiny viewfinders, you can use magnifiers to attain huge magnifications of the center area for much better manual focusing.

I bought a Canon FN-6X viewfinder for the Canon New F-1 not so long ago. This is a chimney finder with 6x magnification and variable dioptre. The image seen through the finder is H U G E, it feels like using a medium format camera. Really makes the regular prism finders seem useless.

I'd suggest this kind of finders to people having trouble with manual focusing.

 

[flavio81]

The shutter speed is shown in ultra tiny lcd so your eyes could be much better then mine if you can see it.
And of course you have to cover it as external light will influence the meter.

Beautiful pic, thanks!

 

[flavio81]

Nothing compares to the Leica R8 or R9

I think the Canon T90 shows more info.