Manual Focus SLRS with "Full information" viewfinders

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

There's a 5 year old thread with a similar title but I wanted to focus on manual focus SLRS with at least metered manual.

My personal criteria
- Manual focus
Metered Manual mode (mandatory)
- Displays chosen aperture and shutter speed in the viewfinder + indication of over/under/correct exposure (either - 0 + or what aperture or shutter speed the camera would have chosen)
Aperture Priority (if available)
- Displays chosen aperture and the shutter speed the camera is choosing
Shutter Priority (if available)
- Displays chosen shutter speed and the aperture the camera is choosing

This post from the other thread seems a good start

flavio81 said:
Those cameras only show the shutter speed in the viewfinder. They don't show aperture.

To the OP, those are the cameras I recall showing all information. Of course there are more, particularly all the later 80s cameras with auto-everything and LCD panels will probably show the full information in the viewfinder. But for older cameras, the ones I remember:

Nikon F2 (F2AS for example), F3
Canon New F-1, A-1
Nikon FE, FE2, FM, FM2
Yashica FR-1

The Canon New F-1 has additionally the distinction of being able to show simultaneously:

a) the chosen shutter speed
b) the chosen aperture
c) the suggested aperture.

Similarly, on the Nikon FE (and FE2):

a) the chosen shutter speed
b) the chosen aperture
c) the suggested shutter speed.

From the post is this list

Nikon F2 (F2AS for example), F3
Canon New F-1, A-1
Nikon FE, FE2, FM, FM2
Yashica FR-1

I would say the Canon A-1 and Yashica FT-1 wouldn't quite meet my criteria because I believe in metered manual they just tell you the shutter speed the camera would choose but does not indicate what shutter speed you have currently chosen. Minolta XG-M does this as well. Honourable mentions perhaps.

So that leaves

Nikon F2 (F2AS for example), F3
Canon New F-1
Nikon FE, FE2, FM, FM2

The Minolta XD/XD-7/XD-11 would qualify as its manual shows all 3 bits of data

Pentax KX, MX, LX

Another honourable mention might be the Minolta 9000. It's technically AF but has no motorized film transport and with a manual focus lens would be just like the cameras above but possibly with a perk of a focus confirmation light.

So that leaves us with

Nikon F2 (F2AS for example), F3
Canon New F-1
Nikon FE, FE2, FM, FM2
Minolta XD/XD-7/XD-11
Pentax KX, MX, LX

Anything else I'm missing?

Horatio · Oct 29, 2020

Leica R-series, which I have just discovered, but not obtained.

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

Horatio said:
Leica R-series, which I have just discovered, but not obtained.

Nice, thanks!

Chan Tran · Oct 29, 2020

skorpiius said:
There's a 5 year old thread with a similar title but I wanted to focus on manual focus SLRS with at least metered manual.

I would say the Canon A-1 and Yashica FT-1 wouldn't quite meet my criteria because I believe in metered manual they just tell you the shutter speed the camera would choose but does not indicate what shutter speed you have currently chosen. Minolta XG-M does this as well. Honourable mentions perhaps.

The Canon A-1 is worse than what you said. It really doesn't have a manual mode. To set exposure manually you have to set in on Tv mode. Set your shutter speed which is displayed in the viewfinder. The aperture that the camera thinks is correct also displayed in the viewfinder. You would take the lens aperture ring off the A position and set the actually aperture (either to match what in the viewfinder or not).

Paul Howell · Oct 29, 2020

Canon T90 and 70, Konica T, T2, T3, but not T4, Minolta 201.

bunip · Oct 29, 2020

Nikon FA?

Les Sarile · Oct 29, 2020

Added a few to your list . . .

Nikon F2 metered, F3, FE, FE2, FM, FM2, FM3A, FA, FG
Canon A-1, New F-1
Minolta XE, XD, XK
Pentax K2 DMD, KX, MX, LX
Ricoh XR7
Yashica FR

What are you going to do with the info?

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Added a few to your list . . .

Nikon F2 metered, F3, FE, FE2, FM, FM2, FM3A, FA, FG
Canon A-1, New F-1
Minolta XE, XD, XK
Pentax K2 DMD, KX, MX, LX
Ricoh XR7
Yashica FR

What are you going to do with the info?

Good question, I'm looking to have 3 types of film slrs that are 'perfect for me'. Type #1 is the late 80s-2000s 'auto everything' type that can get anything done. I've decided on Nikon F80/100 for that. Sometimes like to shoot film to get away from automation, so the opposite of that would be type # 2, full manual, toying with a Nikon FM for now.

But then I started thinking, I wonder how much electronic assistance I could add before it felt no different than type #1?

Much of electronic SLR tech is to make things faster. Faster exposure settings, faster focus, faster film loading, faster film rewind, faster frame advance.
The last three of those in particular are totally useless to me, if I want to shoot 20 pics in 5 seconds I'll use my Nikon D300, so those are not only useless to me, they make a racket!

So I guess in a nutshell I'm seeing what might be a perfect mix of electronic aids but retain the quiet nature of manual mechanical SLRS. In my mind that's probably electronic exposure assistance when desired, with lots of info in the viewfinder, but also with available full manual exposure, and specifically full manual exposure that isn't a worse experience than 100% mechanical cameras. That's also why I could give a pass to a rather plastic camera like the Minolta 9000 being that it is manual wind, manual rewind, full info and with a manual lens would have focus confirmation as another non-obtrusive aid.

EDIT: based my criteria only requiring manual exposure I suppose I am also looking at alternatives to the FM with good viewfinder info in addition to my novel above about a mix of tech and manual

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

Chan Tran said:
The Canon A-1 is worse than what you said. It really doesn't have a manual mode. To set exposure manually you have to set in on Tv mode. Set your shutter speed which is displayed in the viewfinder. The aperture that the camera thinks is correct also displayed in the viewfinder. You would take the lens aperture ring off the A position and set the actually aperture (either to match what in the viewfinder or not).

Oof, you know I ordered an A-1 and a Minolta XD to decide between the two and only after the A-1 was on the way did I read about what I thought the manual process was. That already made me iffy on keeping it. What you've described has completely cemented the intention to sell upon receipt!

Les Sarile · Oct 29, 2020

Have you used a fully manual camera before? Unlike an autofocus camera, the viewfinder can be a big factor. For instance if you wear glasses, a large magnification may be a disadvantage. OTOH, a small magnification may make it hard to achieve critical focus. Of course all autofocus cameras have super tiny viewfinders since users rely on the AF.
Different vf screens might be important and the Nikon FM doesn't have changeable screens if that matters.

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Have you used a fully manual camera before? Unlike an autofocus camera, the viewfinder can be a big factor. For instance if you wear glasses, a large magnification may be a disadvantage. OTOH, a small magnification may make it hard to achieve critical focus. Of course all autofocus cameras have super tiny viewfinders since users rely on the AF.
Different vf screens might be important and the Nikon FM doesn't have changeable screens if that matters.

I have, although most of my manual use has been my Yashica TLR but I have been playing around with a Nikon FE and FM. I don't wear glasses so that helps. As far as screens as long as there's a split prism that works for me.
I know what you mean about AF screens, I also have a Pentax PZ-1 and that screen has no focusing aids at all for manual focus use and I don't really like to use it with manual focus lenses.

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

Paul Howell said:
Canon T90 and 70, Konica T, T2, T3, but not T4, Minolta 201.

I don't know anything about any of these, time to research

Les Sarile · Oct 29, 2020

skorpiius said:
I have, although most of my manual use has been my Yashica TLR but I have been playing around with a Nikon FE and FM. I don't wear glasses so that helps. As far as screens as long as there's a split prism that works for me.

Then I would recommend Pentax MX or LX as they have the largest viewfinder magnifications as well as changeable screens on both and additionally changeable viewfinders on LX. Many other features if you're interested.

skorpiius · Oct 29, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Then I would recommend Pentax MX or LX as they have the largest viewfinder magnifications as well as changeable screens on both and additionally changeable viewfinders on LX. Many other features if you're interested.

I actually bought an MX at a local auction just last week but it ended up being broken, I did notice the nice viewfinder and the led meter worked and was easy on the eyes. Maybe I should consider a working replacement.
Also interested in the LX as the only negative with the MX was I found it almost a bit too small.

Kino · Oct 29, 2020

Minolta X-700.
Program Mode
Aperture Priority
Full Manual Mode
Shutter speeds, aperture window, LED Readout that shows suggested and actual shutter speed LEDs in manual mode
Exposure adjustment +/- indicator flashes in viewfinder when you have that activated. (Doesn't tell you if it's over or under, just that it is engaged.)
Minolta MD lenses are great and relatively cheap
(Sorry for the crappy snap shot)

Les Sarile · Oct 29, 2020

skorpiius said:
I actually bought an MX at a local auction just last week but it ended up being broken, I did notice the nice viewfinder and the led meter worked and was easy on the eyes. Maybe I should consider a working replacement.
Also interested in the LX as the only negative with the MX was I found it almost a bit too small.

The MX is the smallest full info fixed prism SLR with the largest viewfinder magnification.

Size comparison. Notice that the LX in the middle is about the same size as the fixed prism cameras.

Size comparison of interchangeable prism cameras.

Pflaumesaft · Oct 29, 2020

Just about any Contax post 1980 would do. As far as philosophy goes, they are probably the last to give up manual focus yet not shy away from modern conveniences.

Paul Howell · Oct 29, 2020

skorpiius said:
I don't know anything about any of these, time to research

Add the Topcon D and Super, not sure about the RE.

flavio81 · Oct 29, 2020

Chan Tran said:
The Canon A-1 is worse than what you said. It really doesn't have a manual mode. To set exposure manually you have to set in on Tv mode. Set your shutter speed which is displayed in the viewfinder. The aperture that the camera thinks is correct also displayed in the viewfinder. You would take the lens aperture ring off the A position and set the actually aperture (either to match what in the viewfinder or not).

How's that procedure NOT a manual mode?

I've owned an A-1 for many years and also used the manual mode occasionally. It's not as great a mode as other cameras, but still usable.

flavio81 · Oct 29, 2020

skorpiius said:
Oof, you know I ordered an A-1 and a Minolta XD to decide between the two and only after the A-1 was on the way did I read about what I thought the manual process was. That already made me iffy on keeping it. What you've described has completely cemented the intention to sell upon receipt!

You should not only evaluate a camera on features but on actual usage. I've owned the A-1 for about 20 years and I find it very satisfying -- and i own many "superior" cameras like F-1, New F-1, MX, F2, F3, FE, etc.

In the same way, i overlooked the Canon T70 for years thinking it was crap, until I bought one only because it was mint and really cheap. Turned out to be an excellent camera, and at the end I only use the Canon F-1 because it strokes my ego and my fetish for mechanical things, otherwise the T70 is as good or even better as a camera for actually taking pictures.

flavio81 · Oct 29, 2020

skorpiius said:
# 2, full manual, toying with a Nikon FM for now.

Try the Nikkormats; better built than the FM.

Bill Burk · Oct 29, 2020

Weird... No mention of OM-4, which I think has a very good full metered manual. Aperture priority with indications of shutter that will be used. Spotmeter modes too

Les Sarile · Oct 30, 2020

Bill Burk said:
Weird... No mention of OM-4, which I think has a very good full metered manual. Aperture priority with indications of shutter that will be used. Spotmeter modes too

The OP specified full info viewfinder - shutter speed and aperture, and unfortunately the OM series is incapable of displaying the aperture. As far as I know there is no coupling to indirectly show it and the apertures are on the front of most lenses where the typical aperture window cannot show it.
Personally, the lack of aperture info in the viewfinder is not a deal breaker for me and I do prefer spot metering.

flavio81 said:
Try the Nikkormats; better built than the FM.

Nikkormats don't show the aperture either.

skorpiius · Oct 30, 2020

Pflaumesaft said:
Just about any Contax post 1980 would do. As far as philosophy goes, they are probably the last to give up manual focus yet not shy away from modern conveniences.

Ooo good suggestion, looks like the 139Q, RTS ii and the 159 MM are right up my alley.

skorpiius · Oct 30, 2020

Aw

Les Sarile said:
The MX is the smallest full info fixed prism SLR with the largest viewfinder magnification.

Size comparison. Notice that the LX in the middle is about the same size as the fixed prism cameras.

Size comparison of interchangeable prism cameras.

Awesome comparisons, thanks!

Manual Focus SLRS with "Full information" viewfinders

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