Mamiya vs Bronica (645) Who's got the better 55mm and 80mm?

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L_E_Miller

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I have started and stopped medium format a few times over the years -- This time I want to try something smaller so I'm looking 645. Currrently I'm stuck between the Bronicas and the manual focus Mamiyas.

I'm mostly just interested in having a 55mm and 80mm as my focal lengths. Maaaaybe a 150mm. So some good information about that would probably make my mind up for me.

So based on that which system would you lean? (The 80 1.9 on Mamiya is obviously very neat but I'm not as interested in shallow DOF )


Thanks a bunch
 

moto-uno

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Being a Bronica fan here for years ( trouble free ) , I'm kinda partial to the Bronica 50mm (PE) and 75mm combo :smile:
For some reason or another I felt the 150mm lens was a necessity , don't think I used it twice in over 5 years !
YMMV but the Bronicas are great robust cameras .. Peter
 

wiltw

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bigger choice criteria than comparative quality of optics is
focal plane shutter vs. leaf shutter​
  • shutter redundancy (one in each lens) for Bronica vs. all lenses dependent on single focal plane shutter in Mamiya
  • leaf shutter syncs up to 1/500 with electronic flash vs. 1/60 sync with electronic flash with focal plane shutter
  • (a few) leaf shutter lenses for Mamiya lose auto shutter speed selection with metering finder
 

MattKing

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The grip options for the later versions of the Mamiya offerings are better suited for left handed photographers like me.
I really, really, really like my 55mm f/2.8 N lens for the Mamiya. I have owned the 80mm f/2.8 version in the past, but sold it as my lens kit evolved.
45mm f/2.8 N, 55mm f/2.8 N, 80mm f/4 Macro, 110mm f/2.8 and 210mm f/4 is where things stand at now.
The 55mm, 110mm, 210mm trio is nice because they share the same focus assist lever and filter size.
 
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I’ve been a longtime Bronica ETRS user. I’ve only the 75mm ƒ/2.8 EII, a single 120 back, unmetered prism and speed grip. I’ve never had any problems with it. The 75mm lens is very sharp, though it has some pincushion distortion. Bokeh is decent and the rendering in black and white is otherwise quite lovely. I’ve done good portraits with it.

Be aware that Bronica never made an 80mm lens for the 645 format. The closest you’d get to 55 and 80 is 50 or 60 and 75, respectively.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I have started and stopped medium format a few times over the years -- This time I want to try something smaller so I'm looking 645. Currrently I'm stuck between the Bronicas and the manual focus Mamiyas.

I'm mostly just interested in having a 55mm and 80mm as my focal lengths. Maaaaybe a 150mm. So some good information about that would probably make my mind up for me.

So based on that which system would you lean? (The 80 1.9 on Mamiya is obviously very neat but I'm not as interested in shallow DOF )


Thanks a bunch

I don't have either that would be very surprised at the Mamiya wouldn'twin this one hands-down.
 

reddesert

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When it comes to modern medium format lenses I think they're all reaching some high level of "good," (especially if you stop down to get more than a thin DOF), so there are other considerations beyond optical quality that may matter to you. (Though I haven't used every medium format lens under the sun, of course.) wiltw brought up some of these issues. IMO:

Bronica ETR:
- leaf shutters (can matter if you use in studio or outdoor fill flash; perhaps less of an issue for Photrio users than a 1990s professional)
- exchangeable backs
- fairly easy availability of meter/AE prisms
- non instant return mirror

Mamiya 645 original
- focal plane shutter, slower flash sync
- no exchangeable backs, but can preload extra inserts
- can adapt lenses from some other MF systems
- a bit simpler since no body-back interlock or darkslide
- many of the prisms have a band of bothersome coating loss due to foam rot, just something to look out for. Not economically repairable AFAIK.

Mamiya 645 Pro/Super
- focal plane shutter
- exchangeable backs
- compatible with the same 645 manual focus lenses
- different finders not interchangeable with the early ones (may not have the same foam rot problem)
- significantly more expensive than the earlier ones I think.
 

Steven Lee

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@L_E_Miller do not ask for opinions, that's useless. People's preference and standards for quality are all over the map, and they will simply recommend what they have. Ask for full-sized scans of negatives shot with both lenses wide open. Only wide open.
 

MattKing

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@L_E_Miller do not ask for opinions, that's useless. People's preference and standards for quality are all over the map, and they will simply recommend what they have. Ask for full-sized scans of negatives shot with both lenses wide open. Only wide open.

I'm going to differ on this, because it will result in arguing about how many pixels can dance on the head of a pin :smile:.
Both camera systems offer lenses of very high, professional level quality that easily fulfilled the requirements of working professional photographers for years.
The quality of your results will depend not on the tiny differences between the optical qualities of the lenses when new, but rather on:
1) condition of the lenses available to you now; and
2) factors like ergonomics, filter size consistency, focusing throw differences, fill flash capabilities, overall system capabilities, local availability of used stock, availability of service.
 

wiltw

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I'm going to differ on this, because it will result in arguing about how many pixels can dance on the head of a pin :smile:.
Both camera systems offer lenses of very high, professional level quality that easily fulfilled the requirements of working professional photographers for years.
The quality of your results will depend not on the tiny differences between the optical qualities of the lenses when new, but rather on:
1) condition of the lenses available to you now; and
2) factors like ergonomics, filter size consistency, focusing throw differences, fill flash capabilities, overall system capabilities, local availability of used stock, availability of service.

Indeed!...and there were few (if any) direct objective reviews of medium format lenses done by the same organization, which would ever permit comparison of any resulting test numbers (numbers are near meaningless if not tested by one organization with reproducible test circumstances.). and we all know the grain of salt that is needed with subjective commentary.
 

Steven Lee

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Let me remind you first that the question was specifically about lenses. It's in the title. This thread is not about "overall system capabilities" or interchangeable backs, or instant return mirror. No. It's about very specific four lenses.

@MattKing you are right of course, those things matter. But asking strangers is not going to help you with the lens condition or ergonomics. The concerns you have raised are either subjective or can be resolved by simply looking at the specs online.

When it comes to lens recommendations based on the image they render, only high quality samples can answer that. Someone thinks "busy bokeh" while other will love it. Some say "too much vignetting" while others will love it, and so on.
 

MattKing

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When it comes to lens recommendations based on the image they render, only high quality samples can answer that. Someone thinks "busy bokeh" while other will love it. Some say "too much vignetting" while others will love it, and so on.

I think you are reading "better" in the thread title as referencing just the images they render - the optical qualities of the lenses. I'm reading the question as being a bit more expansive.
 

wiltw

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I think you are reading "better" in the thread title as referencing just the images they render - the optical qualities of the lenses. I'm reading the question as being a bit more expansive.

It is hard to ignore the topic..."Who's got the better 55mm and 80mm?"
And due to the shortage of direct objective test measurements, I began to suggest other considertions behing the criteria of choice between brands.
 

MattKing

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It is hard to ignore the topic..."Who's got the better 55mm and 80mm?"

Where would you put characteristics like lens size, filter size consistency, length of focus throw, availability of mechanical focus aids, general ergonomics, etc., etc.?
They all form a large part of my valuations of "best" - far more than small differences in MTF performance.
This is what I mean about the question being expansive.
 

wiltw

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Where would you put characteristics like lens size, filter size consistency, length of focus throw, availability of mechanical focus aids, general ergonomics, etc., etc.?
They all form a large part of my valuations of "best" - far more than small differences in MTF performance.
This is what I mean about the question being expansive.

Precisely why I started with the suggesion of OTHER consideration than lens IQ...but the discussion started with lens IQ (contrary to your interpretation of the title, "thread title as referencing just the images they render - the optical qualities of the lenses")
 
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MattKing

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Precisely why I started with the suggesion of OTHER consideration than lens IQ...but the discussion started with lens IQ (contrary to your interpretation of the title, "thread title as referencing just the images they render - the optical qualities of the lenses")

I guess we read the initial question differently.
 

wiltw

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I guess we read the initial question differently.

I think we both understand that camera selection is not merely the lens. I simply see the title as placing lens IQ as the FIRST criteria, and the only one apparently identified by OP in entering that in the title. We both see selection criteria as really a more inclusive set of criteria than lens IQ alone. But I see no 'disagreement' between us.
 

MattKing

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I think we both understand that camera selection is not merely the lens. I simply see the title as placing lens IQ as the FIRST criteria, and the only one apparently identified by OP in entering that in the title. We both see selection criteria as really a more inclusive set of criteria than lens IQ alone.

I think we need clarification from the OP what "best" they are looking for, because there is no IQ reference in the title or the first post, and references in the first post to the "system" and the 80mm f/1.9 lens being "neat" don't make it any clearer.
 

wiltw

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'better' does need more detail from OP as to what qualities make a lens 'better'

OTOH, there is NO 'better 80mm or 55mm', as Bronica has no lenses at those two FL (as already pointed out by another reply) 😄
 
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L_E_Miller

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I think we need clarification from the OP what "best" they are looking for, because there is no IQ reference in the title or the first post, and references in the first post to the "system" and the 80mm f/1.9 lens being "neat" don't make it any clearer.

I'm just looking for general comments on the lenses. I'm sure they are all fine, as they are professional equipment. Makes the choice hard.
 
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L_E_Miller

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I think we both understand that camera selection is not merely the lens. I simply see the title as placing lens IQ as the FIRST criteria, and the only one apparently identified by OP in entering that in the title. We both see selection criteria as really a more inclusive set of criteria than lens IQ alone. But I see no 'disagreement' between us.

I have a general sense already of what I like and dislike about the systems themselves, but I am less clear on who has the better lenses in these two focal ranges. Obviously better is subjective but I'm interested in those subjective things.
 

MattKing

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Splitting hairs. 75mm fills the same niche as 80mm, more or less.

A 50mm + 75mm pair is, together, enough different from a 50mm + 80mm pair that it is worth paying attention to.
In my case, I consider a 55mm lens as essentially my standard lens, with a 45mm being a wide lens.
The 80mm or 110mm fulfil my needs for something slightly longer.
I used to work printing proofs and machine enlargements for professional photographers who mainly did wedding and portrait work. The 6x4.5 negatives came from Bronica camera, Mamiya cameras and (I think) Hasselblad cameras. I saw a lot of negatives, and made a lot of prints, and unless I happened to know which cameras were being used, I wouldn't usually have been able to tell.
Some of those negatives ended up as large custom prints - again the quality and characteristics of the camera and lens systems didn't seem to determine the quality of the results.
Around the same time, I sold Mamiya and Hasselblad cameras and lenses - although not Bronica. My experience handling (but not using myself) Bronica 6x4.5 equipment is more recent. The ergonomics and approach to things like filter use are really different between all three. The difference between leaf shutters and focal plane shutters is important too. Close focusing capability can be important as well.
I like my Mamiya 645 Pro and the raft of lenses and accessories. The following comments relate to this.
The system suits my left-handed needs. The lenses are consistent in colour rendition and quality, with excellent resolution and contrast. For most of the lenses, the focus throw is short and the close focusing capabilities permit close framing. 55mm is the standard filter size for a number of the lenses, and 67mm is standard for the 45mm and 80mm macro (the 80mm standard also uses 55mm filters).
All of the lenses have excellent focusing grips, and all the lenses that use 55mm filters can be used with the excellent, detachable focus assist lever.
The aperture rings on all my lenses offer clear, easy to read numbers and positive click stops - in some cases half stops.
The 55mm lens is relatively tiny. I have the relatively rare waist level finder for my camera, so as long as I'm comfortable with landscape orientation only, I can go out with the 55mm lens and WLF on and the combination is wonderfully light and compact - great for something like the local on the street annual classic car show. The 80mm standard lens isn't a lot bigger than the 55mm lens.
This example is one of the 55mm at the car show examples, resized down for the old Photrio requirements:

1659980650959.png
 
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  • Reason: Oops - didn't read the entire post, he covered that

lobitar

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Perhaps off topic, but just for the record - my Pentax 645 has a 3-lens set (55 -75-150) that I think is hard to better for quality (both optical and mechanical). Of course, the Pentax is entirely battery dependent and don't feature mags. The others I don't know about, except I seem to remember the Mamiya 645 Super body is flimsy and plasticky?
 
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