Mamiya Universal or Fuji GX680?

[Jeff Bradford]

I have been wanting a 6x9 camera with interchangeable lenses. At least I think I want 6x9, as the aspect ratio looks good to my eye. But then I remind myself that plenty of people are getting by just fine with 6x7 and I don't really have any particular reason why I require 6x9. The ultimate goal would be b&w landscape, architecture, and portraits for contact printing. My reasoning has led me to a couple of options: Mamiya Universal or related press camera system (up to $2,500 budget), or Fuji GX680 system (up to $3,500 budget). The Mamiya is smaller, cheaper, lighter, and does 6x9. The Fuji is huge, expensive, heavy, and does 6x8, but it also has full movement capability.

What are your thoughts on either system? Any recommendations for what lenses are must-have vs. so-so?

Right now, my inclination is to get the GX680iii and a heavy-duty tripod.

 

[ic-racer]

6x7cm is like small 4x5in (in proportions).
6x9cm is like big 35mm (in proportions).

6x8 is in the middle.

You might also want to check out Horseman 6x9cm cameras if you want the bellows and movements of the Fuji GX in a mechanical camera.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I prefer 6x6 and 4"x5" proportions, but that is a matter of personal tastes. Those proportions when not cropping fit on 8"x10" and 11"x14" easier than the 135 and 6x9. 135 and 6x9 just never fit well on paper if I want the complete image, unless I print them at a smaller size, hence I do not enjoy working with them as much in the darkroom.

 

[Paul Howell]

I have been wanting a 6x9 camera with interchangeable lenses. At least I think I want 6x9, as the aspect ratio looks good to my eye. But then I remind myself that plenty of people are getting by just fine with 6x7 and I don't really have any particular reason why I require 6x9. The ultimate goal would be b&w landscape, architecture, and portraits for contact printing. My reasoning has led me to a couple of options: Mamiya Universal or related press camera system (up to $2,500 budget), or Fuji GX680 system (up to $3,500 budget). The Mamiya is smaller, cheaper, lighter, and does 6x9. The Fuji is huge, expensive, heavy, and does 6x8, but it also has full movement capability.

What are your thoughts on either system? Any recommendations for what lenses are must-have vs. so-so?

Right now, my inclination is to get the GX680iii and a heavy-duty tripod.

I have not owned a Fuji but it is heavy, great lens, don't know what you get for $3,500. I do have a Universal, with 55, 65, 100 and 150 lens set. The lens are very good to excellent, the rangefinder is ok. As you have $2500 to spend hunt until you find a multi back with masks, it will allow 6 x 4.5, 6X6 and 6X7 then with a standard 6X9 you can shoot in what ever format you want. Mamiya press cameras require that you cock the shutter. I have the standard 6X9 back and like a little extra room for crop.

For landscape the 65 and 100 are 2 lens I use most often, Mamyia did make a 250 both coupled and uncoupled, hard to find and expensive. The 150 is fine for portraits

In terms of other press cameras,

Konica Rapid 6X7 with a standard 3 lens kit, 55, 90, and 180 is a very nice outfit, I shot with one when in the Air Force in the early 70s, only 3 lens but excellent.

Horseman, Lindoff, what more can I say.

Mimi Speed or Crown with graflock back for roll film.

Outside the box but a 6x9 view camera, Toyo or Galvin, roll film back, lighter than either a Mamiya or Fuji, can use any number of lens. Changing from the ground glass back to roll film back can be a pain.

 

[vdonovan]

An important difference between the two is that the Mamiya (and press cameras) are rangefinders, while the 680 is a reflex camera. I've used the Universal for years and shot thousands of Polaroids with it. It's great for events and field work where it might get bounced around or damaged. Not so great for precise work like studio portraits or architecture. I have a Bronica SQ medium format reflex camera that I much prefer for studio portraits (on the occasions I can't shoot large format). If I were to pick between the two, I'd save the money and go with the 680 and a nice sturdy tripod.

 

[John Koehrer]

6x7cm is like small 4x5in (in proportions).
6x9cm is like big 35mm (in proportions).

6x8 is in the middle.

You might also want to check out Horseman 6x9cm cameras if you want the bellows and movements of the Fuji GX in a mechanical camera.

What he says RE: the Horseman or maybe another 6X9 field camera. Toyo, Shen Hao(?) Technica

 

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. There are no really hard and fast standards for roll film formats larger than nominal 6x6 (usually 56 x 56 mm). Nominal 6x7 is usually 56 x 68. Usually. Nominal 6x9 (same as nominal 2.25" x 3.25") ranges from 56 x 78 (late Graflex 2x3 roll holders with pin rollers) to as much as 56 x 84 (for example, Linhof 6x9 Super Rollex and Mamiya Press). 6x8, as realized by the Fuji GX680 is 56 x 75.

As has been mentioned above, the GX680 is an SLR and Mamiya Press (includes Super 23 and Universal) cameras are rangefinders. What hasn't been mentioned explicitly is that the GX680's cataloged weight is over 4 kg. The Super 23 weighs roughly 4 pounds. Jeff, which would you rather carry?

Previous posters have suggested various press cameras. In spite of their name, cameras in the Mamiya press system are not typical press cameras. The typical press camera folds, has at least a double extension (> 200 mm) bellows, accepts lenses in shutters on boards and may have a range finder. Some, e.g., Linhof and Horseman may have range finders that can be cammed to nearly any lens. Kalart rangefinders as used on some press cameras can be adjusted for a range of lenses but the calibration process is so time-consuming that in practice the RF is good for only one lens. Hugo Meyer RFs as used on some press cameras can be adjusted for only one lens, typically the standard issue normal lens.

Little field cameras have more movements than press cameras, rarely have coupled rangefinders. Most, not all, fold.

Most press cameras have some movements. Practically speaking Mamiya Press cameras have no movements. Movements can't be used when shooting hand-held.

When I moved up in format from 35 mm still to 2x3 I was strongly tempted by the Mamiya Press system but ended up with a 2x3 Speed Graphic and, later and additionally, a Century Graphic. Regardless of what enthusiasts say, these wee beasties' only useful movement is 19 mm of front rise. Linhof and Horseman press cameras have more. I don't regret getting my little Graphics, which I shoot nearly exclusively from tripod for scenics and closeup (mainly flowers).

No one has mentioned 2x3 view cameras yet. I have a couple of 2x3 Cambo SCs, like them very much. They're less portable than 2x3 press cameras and somewhat slower working but more flexible. Same goes for other 2x3 view cameras. My lens diary (see http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf and I've added a few lenses since 2011) describes the lenses I've used on my Graphics. All but the 60/14 Perigraphe can be used on my Cambos and I'm working on making the Perigraphe usable too. My 900/10 Apo-Saphir can't be used on my Graphics, can be used on a 2x3 Cambo.

Jeff, given that you're inclined to work from tripod I think your best options are the GX680 or a 2x3 view camera with a Horseman or Super Rollex roll holder. Press and field cameras on tripod are nearly as slow-working as a view camera and are much less flexible. If you choose a view camera, don't worry much about lenses. The world's awash in good quality lenses of all focal lengths that cover 2x3 and larger formats.

Good luck, have fun and remember that whatever you do will be wrong,

Dan

 

[gone]

I would buy neither. Some of the best landscape photos I ever took came from a Bessa II w/ a Heliar lens. You can't change the lens for anything else, but its a Heliar. Why would you? These are really, really nice cameras. Superb build quality and innovative design. The only downside is the tiny viewfinder, but you could put an axillary finder on it easily.

 

[MattKing]

I like 6x8, and wish there were more cameras that used that format.

I really like the fact that nine 6x8 negatives fit nicely on a single sheet of negative holders.

 

[LJH]

IMO, get a 4x5" with a roll-film back. Cheaper than either kit, more lenses available, better movements, option for 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12, 6x15 (limited) and 6x17 (very limited) and 4x5".

 

[Axle]

I've had some experience with the GX680iii, it's a great machine, but does cost a fair bit of coin. But in the end worth it.

CCR - Review 7 - Fuji GX680iii by Alex Luyckx, on Flickr

 

[Mike Bates]

I don't have any experience with the Mamiya press cameras, but I have a Fuji GX680.

The GX680 is a system camera in the most complete sense. I own four different bellows, three focusing screens, two viewfinders, multiple backs with inserts for 120 and 220 film, optional 6x7 film back insert, Polaroid back, extension rails, a half a dozen lenses... you get the picture. It's highly configurable.

As you know, it has movements like a view camera, but to be fair, the movements are much more limited. If you're looking for a 30 degree front tilt, you'll have to move to a real view camera. Like a view camera, it can focus almost any lens as closely as you want, especially with the long bellows and extension rails installed. Like a view camera, you get to manually calculate bellows extension exposure compensation when you get it all stretched out.

Frankly, the GX680 is designed for the studio and most at home in the studio. People take them outside and into the mountains, of course, but its a job. While it comes apart to some extent such as the film back, finder, and lenses detach, it doesn't fold or compact itself very small. The rails stick out to the front and the two focus knobs stick out to the sides. It requires a pretty substantial backpack to carry it very far, especially if you want to take a few lenses. I rarely take mine outside, so I can't say much about the weather resistance.

Mine tips the scales at 9 pounds, 8 ounces in a basic configuration with the waist level finder and a 125mm f/5.6 lens (one of the lightest lenses). It's pretty easy to top 10 pounds in other configurations. It's happiest on my rolling studio stand and just about as happy on my Bogen 3046 tripod legs with a 3039 head. That's a sturdy tripod. I wouldn't trust it on a flimsy tripod. By the time you add a good tripod to the backpack, you're talking Sherpa hiring time.

So what do you get in return for all of the bulk and weight? Beautiful 6x8 negatives and extreme flexibility. The Fuji lenses are great and range from a very wide 50mm to moderate telephoto at 300mm. There is a 500mm lens, but it's rare and requires an extra support installed underneath the camera. You can focus from the tip of your nose to infinity.

You can swap inserts in the film back (the new model IIIN, anyway) for 6x5.4, 6x6, 6x7, or the default 6x8. The back will properly advance the film for whatever insert you have installed, giving you the proper number of shots for each format. The back rotates to vertical or horizontal orientation at the touch of a button, so no need to tilt the camera on its side. Touch a button and the mirror locks up. Touch it again and it drops down. There is the standard waist level finder, a chimney magnifying finder, an "angle finder" (no prism, just a mirror), and a somewhat rare AE finder available.

The GX680 is totally dependent on its batteries (plural). There is the main battery (external on the model I and model II, internal on the model III) and a separate battery in the film back. That allows the back to have an LCD screen and retain information such as ISO, frame counter, and other info, even when detached from the camera. For some perspective, there are some nice Micro Four Thirds digital cameras with pancake lenses that are smaller than the GX680 film back alone.

I like my GX680. It does what it does extremely well. Just don't confuse it with a walking around camera.

 

[agfarapid]

You haven't mentioned this, but would you consider a Mamiya RB or RZ? True, it lacks view camera movements but it has bellows close up capability. Excellent range of lenses and, unlike the Fuji, is quite portable. Re 6x8, I think that the RB or RZ has that size film back. If you truly desire the larger framesize of 6x9, consider the Mamiya and purchase a Fuji GW690 rangefinder. Prices on these have dropped and you could easily afford both systems for under $1,000. Killing 2 birds with 2 stones???

 

[Jeff Bradford]

Thanks all for your input. I had considered getting two Fuji 690 rangefinders, but two fixed-lens cameras isn't really what I'm looking for (though it is a consideration for another project). I'm looking for a whole system, hence my projected budgets. I want a range of lenses from wide to short-tele/portrait. And if my past performance is a predictor, I will buy every lens for the system, try them all, and sell off half of them. I already have plenty of 645 and 6x6 gear and I find myself wanting larger negatives for contact printing. A 4x5 camera is an interesting option, but I'm trying to stick to roll-film at the moment. If I jump to a camera that accepts sheet film, the whole paradigm changes. It will happen eventually, but I'm holding back for now.

I like the aspect ratio of 6x4.5. 6x8 and 6x9, though not numerically the same, are roughly equivalent for my purposes, and 6x7 is probably close enough. Anything I'm doing in this format will be on a tripod. If I need hand-held snapshots, I've got various 135 cameras, a Pentax 645n and a Kodak Medalist II (6x9). The Pentax leaves me wanting larger negatives. The Kodak leaves me wanting wider lenses. My Mamiyaflex & C22 leave me wanting an enlarger. An enlarger would require moving to a different house first, so investing in a camera system I can daylight-tank develop and contact print is actually a bargain (unless it opens the window to buying into sheet-film & LF).

 

[Paul Howell]

Thanks all for your input. I had considered getting two Fuji 690 rangefinders, but two fixed-lens cameras isn't really what I'm looking for (though it is a consideration for another project). I'm looking for a whole system, hence my projected budgets. I want a range of lenses from wide to short-tele/portrait. And if my past performance is a predictor, I will buy every lens for the system, try them all, and sell off half of them. I already have plenty of 645 and 6x6 gear and I find myself wanting larger negatives for contact printing. A 4x5 camera is an interesting option, but I'm trying to stick to roll-film at the moment. If I jump to a camera that accepts sheet film, the whole paradigm changes. It will happen eventually, but I'm holding back for now.

I like the aspect ratio of 6x4.5. 6x8 and 6x9, though not numerically the same, are roughly equivalent for my purposes, and 6x7 is probably close enough. Anything I'm doing in this format will be on a tripod. If I need hand-held snapshots, I've got various 135 cameras, a Pentax 645n and a Kodak Medalist II (6x9). The Pentax leaves me wanting larger negatives. The Kodak leaves me wanting wider lenses. My Mamiyaflex & C22 leave me wanting an enlarger. An enlarger would require moving to a different house first, so investing in a camera system I can daylight-tank develop and contact print is actually a bargain (unless it opens the window to buying into sheet-film & LF).

Seems that either a Mamiya Universal or a 6X9 view camera will fit your needs. Depending on your preference for a wide you can you get either the 55 or 65. Of course a view camera allows for full movement. You can still find 6X9 cut film if you want to shoot Zone or BTZS.

If you have room for a daylight tank you might be able to find room for an enlarger. Look for a Federal Stowaway Enlarger. I have one for travel, it is a 6X9, comes with a doublet lens that is surprising sharp. It has water-house stops, all stamped parts. I had to use some weather stripping to seal around the negative carrier for a complete light leak proof.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Jeff, I suggested a 2x3 view camera, LJH suggested a 4x5er. If budget matters at all his suggestion is better.

Used 2x3 view cameras that are digital ready (= have geared focusing and movements) are quite pricey, used ones that aren't digital ready are scarce. I'm into the Cambo system so am slightly partial to it, note that many people on the US large format forum (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/) recommend Sinar cameras over Cambos. Both can be bought for not very much, lens boards and other accessories are fairly available and not very expensive. I don't know the Sinar system well enough to know whether one would be better for you than a Cambo but you should think about both. My 2x3 Cambos are smaller and a little lighter than my 4x5er, were much harder to find. Same goes for 2x3 Plaubels and Linhofs.

FWIW, since you're interested in lenses wider than normal, I shoot nominal 6x9 and 6x12 with a hybrid Cambo (4x5 rear standard, 2x3 front standard, home-made bag bellows for short lenses, Cambo's tapered pleated bellows for longer lenses). I can use my 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon on flat board on that rig. I haven't measured whether the lens on a flat board can be used on a 4x5 Cambo but there are always recessed boards. Longer than 35 mm is no problem and if you want to shoot only 2x3 (6x9) you won't have to get any of the expensive -XL Schneider lenses.

 

[paul ron]

go for the gx680! awsome camera.

 

[DanielStone]

I would agree with Mike Bates on the statement "The GX680 is a system camera in the most complete sense."

The GX680 is NOT small, nor is it light. But it is VERY capable compared with other systems. I find that having front movements greatly aids in composing how I want the final shot to end up, vertical lines stay straight(front rise/fall), swinging the front standard to aid in achieving proper focus without stopping down too far, etc...

I do not hesitate to take my system into the field, but am choosy on what I take... I have the 50,65,100, 125(f3.2), 180(f3.2), and 300mm lenses. All are stellar performers, and super sharp with a beautiful way of rendering contrast.

I chose the GX680 system over the RZ since the proportions match my large format negative preference, 5x7(basically 3x4)
Unfortunately, the system was never really marketed all that well in the USA, so very few photographers adopted it here, vs the RZ/RB and of course, Hasselblad...
But Ebay provides an excellent source for used GX stuff, and the sellers I've dealt with from Japan have all been top-notch in their descriptions, and the prices, IMO, are insane for the quality you're getting.

-Dan