Mamiya RB67 problem

[MattKing]

I fold the tape over so that the taped end is both more stiff and easier to load into the reel.
I have never had a problem with any of the Kodak films or replenished Kodak developers or other chemicals I use.
I am absolutely confident that Kodak wouldn't include problematic tape adhesives in film designed to run through commercial labs' processors.

 

[mshchem]

On 120 emulsion is on the inside of the curl.

I hate changing bags find a dark room at night

I wouldn't fiddle cutting off the tape

I usually strip off the paper, then rewind the film in my hands so the tape end is the last on the reel.

If you are using a fresh Paterson reel don't fuss with snipping.

I really despise changing bags, film and hands get damp from perspiration.

Take a roll of film run it through the camera, then un spool it in the light and try to load the reel. You will lose a roll but gain some insight.

 

[reddesert]

...A belief I no longer hold, as it now seems most likely that in spooling the film I've somehow (and all too consistently) encouraged the leading edge to interfere with the development of the frame opposite it on the reel. (Looking at the roll as it hangs to dry, I can see quite clearly how winding brings these two together.) So it's not the camera or the film back or the reel or the tank ... it's me.

Back to basics:
When, in the dark bag, I remove the paper backing from the film, I hold the roll in my left hand and unwind the paper with it until the film emerges, which I then collect in my right hand until both parts have unrolled, at which point I separate them with a gentle twist. (BTW: Is the emulsion on the inside or the outside of the curl? I've always assumed the inside. Now I'm not sure.)

The next two steps I've begun to question:
1) I then cut off the film edge with the tape on it, making a new edge more or less even. Should I not do this but simply peel off the tape? (I don't know why I do this; I suspect it's to prevent tape residue from contaminating the film.)
2) In guiding the film edge onto the reel I usually pull it past the ball bearings. Should I not do this but expect the bearings to do the pulling themselves?

I don't really understand the alignment of one spiral of film to the next that is proposed to cause this, but it does look more like uneven development caused by film nearly touching, than various other causes. I assumed from your description that you are loading frame 1 onto the reel first, that you're following the natural curve of the film (emulsion on the inside), and the interference is on one of the inner spirals. But the inner spirals are pretty small, so frame 3 should be somewhere in the middle, not contacting the end.

If you're loading frame 10 first, then frame 3 is near the outside spiral and the end of the film could contact it, but it would be contacting the back, non-emulsion side, which should be less of a problem.

I haven't developed 120 film in a while, but my procedure was to unroll the paper until I got to the film, then start winding the film onto the reel, allowing the backing paper to curl itself up. That is, I don't unroll the film from the paper before loading it onto the reel. When I get to the end with the tape, I cut the last small bit of film off with scissors. I habitually put scissors in the changing bag - you need them with 35mm anyway.

I try to never twist or pull hard on any film, because buckling film can leave physical-development marks - they look like black fingernail clippings on the negative. That doesn't seem to be related to your problem though.

 

[shutterfinger]

I unroll the paper, tear the tape if it will not come off the paper and fold it over if it does, rewind the film and start the end into the film reel clip (ss reels) or into the edge of the reel plastic twist type until the reel pulls it in then wind to the stop.
Emulsion is on the inside of the curl.
It can be that in cutting the end or clipping the corners that the end is slipping out of the groves and curling in toward the adjacent grove with film in it. You should be able to see it if it is when you remove the reel from the tank by looking at the side of the reel, an even space should be between all spirals with film.

 

[Bernard Kelly]

Matt: I agree with you, The tape's probably harmless. I must have learned that from one of many YouTube instructors.

mschem: I used to snip the corners. I don't any more. I'm afraid the dark bag will have to stay.

reddesert: I load the film tape end first. So: frames 1, 2, 3, etc. I can see how your method would be the most efficient: two steps in one. I've just done a pin prick test with a dud roll of film to see how the leading edge and frame 3 line up ... and they do. They're roughly ten inches apart.

shutterfinger: The leading edge curls up from the spiral and -- if it does not touch -- comes close enough to the film (emulsion side) above it to create, as one (private) commenter wrote, an obstruction causing turbulence.

 

[shutterfinger]

The leading edge curls up from the spiral and -- if it does not touch -- comes close enough to the film (emulsion side) above it to create an obstruction causing turbulence.

Bend 1/8 to 3/16 of the lead edge back 22° to 45° prior to inserting it in the reel to eliminate the curl to the next turn on the reel. Too much bend will cause it to catch and prevent the film from loading.

 

[reddesert]

reddesert: I load the film tape end first. So: frames 1, 2, 3, etc. I can see how your method would be the most efficient: two steps in one. I've just done a pin prick test with a dud roll of film to see how the leading edge and frame 3 line up ... and they do. They're roughly ten inches apart.

shutterfinger: The leading edge curls up from the spiral and -- if it does not touch -- comes close enough to the film (emulsion side) above it to create, as one (private) commenter wrote, an obstruction causing turbulence.

I realized the reason for my confusion. You're using AP universal reels, and those have a much finer pitch of the spiral than stainless reels, because the AP reels have to be long enough to hold a 36 exp x 35mm film (roughly 54 inches plus some leader). While a 120 roll is only about 30 inches plus a bit of leader.

This means two things: first, the 120 roll is only loaded into the outer rings of the spiral and never reaches the center. That's why there are 9-10 inches of wrap at the leading end, putting the end adjacent to frame 3.

Second, because the pitch of the spiral is much finer, there is less margin for error if the leading edge bends; it's much easier for the loose edge to affect flow of developer over the film in the adjacent ring of the spiral.

I have both an AP reel and a stainless 120 reel, so here is a picture to show the difference in pitch. I measure about 2.7mm pitch on the AP reel and 4.5 mm on the stainless reel. I believe people do use the AP reels for 120 without these problems, and perhaps you did earlier. So it seems like you should address whether there is something causing your leading edge to bend (film not quite loaded straight?), or make a preventive bend as shutterfinger suggested. Or join the dark side of stainless reels and tanks.

 

[xya]

my 2c: 120 film is still my everyday life as an artist photographer, for nearly 40 years. I use Jobo AP reels. I always load frame 10 or 12 first, as said by others, you unroll the backing paper in a changing bag or absolute darkness until you reach the film end. I bend the end with my fingers abot 45°. no clipping for 120 (but yes for 35mm, 16mm and 110). then I spool the film and let the backing paper go until I reach the tape of frame 1. I tear the backing paper off the tape and fold it onto the film end, it still sticks well. I spool the end with its tape some cm into the reel. that's it. never any problem so far. if all goes well, it's less than 2 minutes.

the advantage of this proceeding: if anything goes wrong while spooling, you still can re-roll your film and restart whenever you want. moisture on AP reel is your enemy, that's why I have quite some reels. if at a second try the film won't spool, I re-spool it onto its core, get it out of the bag via the sleeve, put a bit of tape and have a coffee or something else. and I try later. works like a charm.

I have had similar phenomena (but not the same) when the movements of the tank were too quick or uneven. so I would presume that indeed some spacing between the windings went wrong...

 

[Bernard Kelly]

No luck so far.

I developed another roll yesterday. This time I spooled the film back end first and folded the tape over the other end after separating it from the paper. A much tidier process. Unfortunately the same mark appeared on the third frame in. I say the same but it was fainter and straighter, more of a line than a flame-like shape, which is certainly an improvement.

I experimented with bending the leading edge back on one of the dud rolls I have lying about, but from what I can see (by peering at the reel sideways), the resulting bend seems to bring the edge closer to the neighbouring film, not farther from it. Which leads me to ask whether the "preventive bend" is supposed to be a permanent crease or a temporary manipulation with the fingers while inserting the edge.

On the next roll I'm going to use a different (AP) reel and make a little bit of a bend (real or notional). That tape, by the way, stops the final end from winding on. If only I could position the leading edge so that its "shadow" fell on the area between frames. (As it must be doing on 6x6.)

I'm also going to be gentler with agitation.

reddesert: Thanks for the photo. A steel reel is far more liberal with its spacing, that's for sure. I do have one, and I've used it, but never successfully. The clip at the centre made no sense whatsoever (on mine) and the film seems to have wound unevenly without it. (Hence all the dud rolls mentioned above.)

 

[shutterfinger]

Bending the edge back should not be a crease, just a slight bend in the film that stays.
Rewind the roll as it was when developed or look at the edge while wet, is there any reel support of any kind in the defect area?
If bending the film one way puts it closer to the next turn then try bending it the other way.

When loading a stainless steel reel the film has to be centered in the clip. I fold the film over until the edges are even then make a small crease at the end to identify center then feel the film with the back side of a fingernail along one edge of each turn to ensure there are no bends or buckles in the film.

Can you post a side view picture of the reel loaded with developed film on it?

 

[reddesert]

reddesert: Thanks for the photo. A steel reel is far more liberal with its spacing, that's for sure. I do have one, and I've used it, but never successfully. The clip at the centre made no sense whatsoever (on mine) and the film seems to have wound unevenly without it. (Hence all the dud rolls mentioned above.)

Steel reels require a bit of practice. It is best to take a junk roll of film (perhaps an already developed test roll that you don't cut up) and practice in the daylight.

You have to get the film started centered side-to-side as shutterfinger mentioned. Otherwise it will buckle and jump a spiral. However, you don't really need to worry about the center clip. Some of my old steel reels have a single wire that wraps around the center posts in a C shape, so it contains the film end in the center but doesn't clip it. I was puzzled by this, but it turns out that if you just hold down the film end with a finger as you start turning the reel, then wind one turn on, the friction of film wound onto the reel holds it in place and the force of the clip is not necessary.

I don't have religious feelings about steel vs plastic reels and ordinarily wouldn't suggest that someone switch, but you're clearly having a problem with the plastic reels. However, this isn't a universal problem, so it's also possible that something in your workflow is manipulating the end of the film so as to cause this issue. I would also investigate options such as winding the film onto the reel from the trailing end first, and/or cutting the film leading end rather than pulling the tape off the backing paper.

 

[Bernard Kelly]

Okay, I'll try bending the front edge slightly. And I will take a photo of the side of the reel when I remove the next roll from the tank.

I am now spooling with the non-taped end first rather than the taped one. As to the latter, I rather like keeping the tape on, as it's not the end doing the damage.

BTW, I was wrong about 6x6 negs being unmarked; the flaw appears there, too, I find.

Good advice from both of you re steel reels. I have spent plenty of time practising the friction method, for want of a clip I could understand the function of (see photos). As I said, the film I subsequently ruined is what I use now to play with. I may try again at some point, but at present I see such reels not as a solution but as a source of further problems. I really am determined to continue to use plastic, even at the cost of a flawed frame on every roll. You have all been very helpful in narrowing down the possible causes to this one. I just want to find a fix.

So on the roll to come:
1) I'll bend the non-taped edge before feeding it onto the reel (AP still or perhaps even a fresh unused Paterson);
2) I'll leave tape on or peel it off (if I peel it, I'll advance the roll a little father along the reel -- not sure if this will make any difference, though).

 

[shutterfinger]

I've had the spring clip as shown in your pictures come loose and slide side to side on a 35mm reel before. Check that it is centered on the reel before attempting to load.
I see a problem with the clip on your reel.
I circled in red one side of the clip. I think both sides are bent out of position and interfering with the film when loading. The red circle one should be aimed like the uncircled one and both should not extend beyond the edge of the rod they are wrapped around or should be down further so they form a flat shelf with the edge of the rod so that the film lays flat on the rod when inserted.
The green line shows the flat plane for the film to lie in even if the wire is above the rod, but it should be straight back from the rod and parallel with the rod center.