Mamiya Grey Market question.

[Q.G.]

I was under the impression that MAC Group stands for Mamyia America Corportion.

It does.
Ever since they (not Mamiya) secured the right to use the Mamiya trademark in the U.S.
Doesn't mean that they are the Mamiya company that made all the good stuff, nor that they had anything to do with them at all. Except, of course, making it impossible for the real Mamiya company to use their proper name in the U.S.

Thinking about this a little more, it occurred to me that MAC Group was founded as the marketing, distribution and sales arm here in the U.S. for Mamiya products. True, they are not Mamiya, So I think Q.G.'s comment about not allowing even Mamiya to sell products here in the U.S. is a little misleading.

In what way?
MAC is an independent company, whose aim it was to secure the right to trademarks, thus making it impossible for companies to operate in the U.S. unless they went through them. They somehow (still find it incredible) succeeded.
There are no two ways about it: they do not allow even Mamiya to sell Mamiya products in the U.S. Only MAC (holder of the trademark in the U.S.) can.

Other importers (and dealers) just come to an agreement, sign contracts, with both parties being completely free in their decisions. But that's not how MAC does things.

All importers protect their market. No problem with that. But MAC controls the entire way Mamiya products reach the U.S. consumer.
Most photographic equipment is much cheaper (larger market) in the U.S. than anywhere else. Mamiya products are not.
You can get most equipment repaired by local 'representatives' of the people who made the thing all over the world. But MAC (and, i believe, Nikon in the U.S.) will not.
You can buy something abroad and take it home with you, and the manufacturer will thank you for buying his stuff. Trying very often to arrange it that you can get things fixed under warranty where you live, without you having to take it back to where you bought it. If MAC had their way, they would have it confiscated and destroyed the moment you crossed the border into the U.S.

So when you look at the MAC way of doing business, both from the manufacturer's as the consumer's perspective, free enterprise, and its (relative) blessings, is nowhere to be seen.
It could be argued that the MAC business model is a sublime piece of enterpreneurial thinking, but it is not. Or rather, it is, as much as piracy and monopolism are.


Maybe, now that the real Mamiya has gone from being a big player in the market to a company owned and run as a side line by a company making poles for golf flags, MAC's attitude has changed. In this digital age, owning the Mamiya trademark may no longer be a big money maker enough to bother with the strict enforcement of trademark rights.

 

[Ian Grant]

US law allows anyone to register the trade names of an International company. This happened a few years ago when J&C Registered Rodinal, it's part of the reason it's had to be renamed in different markets. This prevented Exacta selling their Varex cameras in the US, they had to be called VX instead.

While Fotoimpex registered the Adox name in Germany that at least had gone out of use quite a few years before.

Ian

 

[Q.G.]

US law allows anyone to register the trade names of an International company.

Must be why almost all products go under a different name in the U.S.
Way past due its time to have that changed.

 

[lilmsmaggie]

Trade Names & Trademarks are not always the same.

Trademarks:

Trademarks are words, names symbols, designs, phrases, slogans, or a combination thereof that are used to identify and distinguish goods in the marketplace. A trademark is a synonym for brand name.

To register a trademark on the federal level you must be using it or have an intent to use it in interstate commerce. Trademarks can be registered on the Federal level and/or the State level.

Trademark law protects both trademarks (on goods) and service marks (on services).


Trade Names:

All names that identify business entities are trade names. Trade name is a synonym for company name.

Each state has business license requirements which involve registering these names with the city, county, or state offices. Corporations must usually register with their Office of Secretary of State.

Not sure what MAC Group's business relationship is with Mamiya (the parent company) in Japan. But if I'm not mistaken, unless they contract some of their manufacturing to other countries, all Mamiya products are manufactured and shipped from Japan. Maybe Mamiya, Japan needed a cash infusion - who knows.

Maybe Mamiya, Japan, sold all rights and trademarks to the MAC Group and acts just as a manufacturing arm for MAC Group. I doubt this. That would be like Honda or Nissan giving up their rights to their vehicles.

Only way to know for sure would be to order a Dun & Bradstreet annual report. That should have some information in it as to who does what and who owns what.

 

[Q.G.]

The thing really is quite simple. It's a matter of history, and does not need investigating.

MAC (= not Mamiya), registered the trademark "Mamiya", which meant that nothing could be sold under that name in the U.S. unless they said it would be o.k. And they only said it was o.k. after setting terms and conditions.
That forced Mamiya to do business with MAC.

Mamiya was and is a separate company. The only 'link' between Mamiya and MAC is that MAC was allowed by U.S. law to assume the Mamiya name, denying the real Mamiya to use their proper name.


It's as if U.S. law would allow me to assume your name, and you then couldn't do anything without me saying it is o.k. or not (i.e. dictate conditions - ask money - under which you are allowed to make use of your own name).

 

[lilmsmaggie]

Q.G. following your logic, its not that simple. If I've been manufacturing goods in my home country for over 50 years, and I own the patents to the design, engineering, etc., I could give a rats ass what Trademark you registered in your country. As the parent - "I own the product!" I don't have to sell my goods in your country and you can't force me.

This has happened before with other companies that no longer sell their products or goods in the U.S.

Luxman, LTD., Japan, which manufactures audio equipment pulled out of the U.S. market for two decades. You could not buy a Luxman product anywhere in the U.S. They just recently began offering products in the U.S. through an exclusive importer/distributorship. Ditto with Audio Valve of Germany. They also have an exclusive distributor relationship here in the U.S., as does a host of other companies.

Not to sound offensive - but the importer/distributor can set prices and conditions if the parent company gives them the green light to do so. Example: Audio Note, LTD. of England dictates its distributorship rules & prices.

It sounds like there are some who don't like how the MAC Group operates in terms of the products it imports for sale in the U.S. market. I still say that the MAC Group is attempting to protect its market and its distributor/retailer network as well as its customers from fake knock-offs that may be parading on the Grey market as the genuine article, -- ala Rolex watches for $50.

How would you prefer them to operate?

 

[Q.G.]

From the Wikipedia (granted, not the most reliable source. But still):

Mamiya America Corporation
In the United States, the trademark for "Mamiya" is not owned by the original company in Japan but rather by a wholly separate entity called Mamiya America Corporation, (M.A.C). As such, any and all products that bear the name "Mamiya" are controlled by them and has this resulted in a considerable rise in retail pricing when comparing the same products to ones sold outside the US. M.A.C. also owns the tradename "Sekonic" (light meters).

Of course Mamiya didn't "have to sell [their] goods in your country".
They make all those thingies, to shrug off the biggest market in the world. Right...

I can only repeat what i said before.
It is not 'my logic'. That is how it is. Historical fact.

How i would prefer an importer to operate is like i also said before: normal companies negotiate a deal with the manufacturer, and agree (!) on terms.
Mamiya also agreed on terms with MAC. But not quite freely.
Example: you say that "the importer/distributor can set prices and conditions if the parent company gives them the green light to do so". With MAC, Mamiya had no power at all to "give them the green light". It was either do what MAC said, or change the Mamiya name to something MAC hadn't grabbed (imagine what that would have cost).

Of course will importers protect their market. And i have no issue with that at all.

 

[lilmsmaggie]

OK - I think I see what you getting at. According to this wikipedia entry, the MAC Group owns the U.S. "Mamiya" trademark. Could it be a misprint? because in the same paragraph it says that they also own the tradename "Sekonic." Methinks both statements are refering to tradenames. A bit confusing to say the least.

From a historical perspective, I believe that just after WW II, Mamiya couldn't sell its products in Japan. It was only after the positive reception of selling their products abroad, outside of Japan, that they were even allowed to sell Japanese manufactured products on Japanese soil. But that's another story.

In any case, it sounds like Mamiya, Japan allowed themselves to get royally screwed. Especially, if they don't benefit from the higher prices.

 

[Q.G.]

No.
It's not a misprint.

And yes, they also grabbed the Sekonic trademark (and they are not Sekonic either).
Not confusing. Rather a confirmation of what their business model is.

And it's not Mamiya who allowed themselves to get royally screwed. It's U.S. legislation that allowed MAC to do that.
I know of no other place in the free world where it is permitted, even facilitated by law, that you assume some other legal entity's identity, and have the rightful owner pay for using it.
Anyway, we can't blame legislation for what people think they should do.

 

[lilmsmaggie]

Just ran across THE BELL AND HOWELL MAMIYA CASE-WHERE NOW PARALLEL IMPORTS article. And you're right, this whole issue stemmed from litigation based on U.S. legislation.

I haven't had a chance to read the article, but looks like there were tariff and customs acts on the books that allowed the assumption of an entity's identity legally. I think I'm gonna puke know, oh wait, I have to digest some "crow," then I can puke.

 

[lilmsmaggie]

1984 is the year the MAC Group acquired its U.S. Trademark rights. Prior to that:

1. In January, 1982, BHMC's (Bell & Howell, Mamiya Co.) name was changed to "Osawa & Co." Nevertheless, this opinion will continue to refer to appellee as "BHMC." Osawa Precision Industries, Inc., a sister company and wholly-owned subsidiary of Osawa Japan, recently acquired 51% ownership of BHMC. Osawa Japan retains 93% ownership of BHMC through Osawa USA and Osawa Precision Industries, Inc

2. A medium format camera is used principally by professional photographers and sophisticated amateurs, and utilizes 120/220 film. Appellant alleges that there are no United States manufacturers of medium format single lens reflex cameras and that only five foreign manufacturers compete in the medium format line

3. By contract with Mamiya Co., Osawa Japan holds the exclusive right to distribute MAMIYA medium format equipment worldwide, except in Japan, where Mamiya Co. distributes its own goods

4. The complaint alleged that Masel was guilty of infringement of certain United States trademarks in violation of 15 U.S.C. Secs. 1114(1), 1116, 1117, 1118 and 1121 (1976); unfair competition in violation of 15 U.S.C. Secs. 1121 and 1125(a) (1976); common law unfair competition; dilution in violation of N.Y.Gen.Bus.Law Sec. 368-d (McKinney 1968); and conspiracy to commit trademark infringement under the laws of the State of New York

5. A temporary restraining order had been issued originally on July 30, 1981; it remained in effect by consent of the parties until the preliminary injunction was issued.

I wondered what happened to Bell & Howell.

 

[John Koehrer]

I think it was mentioned earlier that Nikon was a similar situation.
Nikon USA was the official importer & were able to limit access to official Nikon products. You can say profit margins if you wish. Products were sold in Hong Kong and Singapore at lower wholesale prices, and several dealers imported the brand. I don't know if Nikon USA could have prevented the importation but they did not perform any service on the products leaving that up to the grey market importer, ie: the camera dealer.
For a while Mamiya carbon fiber tripods were imported by a buying group,(Promaster)bypassing MAC. The
product IMO was trash & I think it was a one time deal. We never reordered them.

 

[RichL]

Q.G.

If you purchased it while living out of country it is covered.