Mamiya C220 and focus issues

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Kirks518

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I recently picked up a C220, and I really like it, but I seem to be having focusing issues. I have three lenses (55mm, 80mm, and 180mm). None of them are perfect; the 55mm has internal spotting (not a haze), the 80mm has the beginnings of separation in the rear group along the edge, and the 180mm has haze on a number of elements in the both lenses. I use the 55mm and 80mm, but haven't used the 180mm for anything other then a focus test.

The 55mm is what got my attention with a focus issue, with this photo:
attachment.php


It looks to be front focusing quite badly. The fort is what I focused on, but the grass in the foreground is the only thing that comes close to being in focus.

I decided to do a focus test with all 3 lenses to figure out if it was the lens, camera, or me. Took 3 shots with each at different distances; 30ft, 10ft, 5ft in the backyard just as a quick and dirty test.

These are from the 5 foot test, cropped to 100%, all were focused on the "World's Greatest Boss" mug. (Ironically, the 180mm lens which has the worst haze (and a potentially flipped element), gave me the best center focus.)

attachment.php
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The C220 doesn't have an interchangeable ground glass, but I'm not sure if it has the same foam deteriorating issue at the GG that the C330 has. The GG is installed with the correct side (smooth) up. It's my understanding that the GG screws are on so tight from the factory that it is highly unlikely that they have loosened.

I use the magnifier always, and I even used a loupe to confirm my focus on the GG.

None of the lenses wobble when mounted.

The focus issue is there with both 120 and 220 film (the fort is on 220, the mug on 120).

The lens seat on the body is smooth and parallel, and the lens clip is tight when closed.

My next step would be to put a ground glass from an RB67 on the film rails (wax paper or similar I have trouble getting flat on the rails), and evaluating from there. If there is a mismatch between the viewing GG and the film rail GG, how would I adjust it?

With the 180mm pretty much spot on with the focus, my only other thought is that both the 55mm and the 80mm aren't shimmed properly internally, or something. But how likely would that me?

Any thoughts or suggestions?
 

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paul ron

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i havent repaired mamiya tlrs in many years, but i am very familiar with tlrs in general.

there does seem to be an apparent dof in your photo. what f-stop was that shot at?

now in your tests, i see its not as as sharp as the 180 but your lenses do have issues which may be contributory to your problem.

also the foam issue in the screen mount may be a problem as well. regardless of the screen not being replaceable, im sure there must be a way to refocus the screen to film plane.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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They were at f/5.6 on all three.

I took the WLF off, and there is no foam or foam residue, or any indication there had been foam.

I actually don't see a way to adjust the focus via the ground glass.
 

ic-racer

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Keep working this through by checking the image with a makeshift ground glass at the back as you suggested. The viewfinder is shimmed to adjust the lenses. Since some of your lenses work OK I'd look into trouble the lenses rather than the camera body and not mess with the viewfinder yet.

c220%20focus.jpg
 
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paul ron

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well at 5.6 you should expect a shallow dof. try shooting at 16 or 32 n see how itll improve?

most of those lenses have a sweet spot at around f 8.

ill bet your camera is focusing fine. try the above recomended check n youll see right away if your screen n film plane are out.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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Well, using a loupe on the GG and at the film plane, the focus on all three lenses match. Hmm, are my eyes getting that bad? If it is my eyes, why would it look in focus to me, but not on the film? I would think I'd only be able to guess at best focus if it were my eyes.

I'm going to have my daughter do the focusing on another test roll. She just had an eye exam 2 weeks ago, and she's 20/20.

The only other possibility that I can think of now is the pressure plate, but wouldn't focus have been bad on the pics from the 180mm? I have 3 shots from the 180mm, and they all look better then the others.

As a ground glass for the film plane, I couldn't use wax paper, as it didn't stay flat across the plane no matter how hard I tried. I decided not to take apart other ground glass units, and instead made myself a focusing aid out of film. I had some developed rolls that had long leaders or unexposed frames, and I attached that to two spools, and made this:

attachment.php


Worked really well I must say.
 

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Jeff Bradford

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Is there perhaps an issue with the extension not keeping the lens parallel with the film plane?
 

ic-racer

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As a ground glass for the film plane, I couldn't use wax paper, as it didn't stay flat across the plane no matter how hard I tried. I decided not to take apart other ground glass units, and instead made myself a focusing aid out of film. I had some developed rolls that had long leaders or unexposed frames, and I attached that to two spools, and made this:y.

Don't know about that. We are looking for fractions of a millimeter here. I use a microscope slide with semi-transparent tape toward the lens.
Also, infinity focus wide open is the most critical focusing parameter on any camera. , so you may want to repeat your original tests (if not at infinity) with all the lenses wide open and compare again. Also be very certain your viewfinder image actually shows infinity clearly. If not then this just might be a case of poor collimation. I guess it is not totally clear if it is a bad lens or mal-adjusted viewfinder on the camera.

You have the service manual, right?
 

MattKing

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if the ground glass isn't in the correct position (i.e. it needs to be re-shimmed) you will see less focus error with longer lenses than with shorter ones. Which is in accord with your results.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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Thanks for the repair manual. I had looked for one, but couldn't find it, even on Butkus. Now I see it way down on the bottom of the page, along with the exploded view pdf.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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If the GG does need to be adjusted, and it's front focusing (which I believe it is), would I add shims (washers as Mamiya calls them), or remove them?

I'm going to do another test roll using charts and a LensAlign calibration target. I hate wasting film on stuff like this....
 

paul ron

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no film is needed to test. put a gg on the film rails with the back open. focus the gg on the back, then with a loupe, check the screen focus.

all this can be done in T mode or B with a locked cable.

btw your photo example shows a perfect dof for 5.6... doesnt look front focused at all... its even front n back if you focused on the fort.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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Alright.....

So using a ground glass from my 124G, focus is off. When I focus on the film plane, I have to move the bellows out a touch to get the ground glass in the WLF to be in focus, and vice verse.

So, do I add or remove shim(s). There are two shims presently installed. And can I use paper as the shim, or what would you recommend?

EDIT: and this most recent focus test was done according to the C220 repair manual - 80mm standard lens, wide open, camera 30" from target (focus calibration chart printed at 13x19") on tripod with cable release in bulb mode, focused using an 8x loupe on both GG's.
 
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paul ron

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i think you'll have to remove shims. just try moving the screen up n see what the effect is and you'll figure out what needs to be done.

what are the shims in there now?

usually i use sheet brass shim stock. you can get it in a hobby shop as an assorted pack of thicknesses.

figuring out the exact shims you'll need will take some experimenting.

be sure to shim all sides exactly the same.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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i think you'll have to remove shims. just try moving the screen up n see what the effect is and you'll figure out what needs to be done.

what are the shims in there now?

usually i use sheet brass shim stock. you can get it in a hobby shop as an assorted pack of thicknesses.

figuring out the exact shims you'll need will take some experimenting.

be sure to shim all sides exactly the same.

Shims that were there are similar to paper, but something different.

I went from removing all the shims, and have been adding them in one by one. Tedious. I'm using a combination of regular paper and photo paper. <shrug> I'm having fun making little paper washers for the rear.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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A few shims, and many hours of checking, and....... it's fixed to where I find it acceptable. I can focus on the 10lpmm in the wlf, and get just about there on the GG at the film plane. MUCH better then it was.
 

ic-racer

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I have to move the bellows out a touch
OK so you will have to add shims. Of course what I wonder is how it got so bad as it did not leave the factory that way. My suspicion is that someone removed the fresnel lens. Am is right?
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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It didn't look like it had been removed (recently at least), there was some gunk where the clips that hold it touch it that looked like it has been there forever.

It was missing two washers on the backside, but after adding shims to both the front and back it's good now.
 

ic-racer

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It didn't look like it had been removed (recently at least), there was some gunk where the clips that hold it touch it that looked like it has been there forever.

It was missing two washers on the backside, but after adding shims to both the front and back it's good now.

Ok, in fact when I look at the parts diagram it looks like the fresnel lens is above the ground glass, rather than under it. Good job putting a nice camera back into service!
 

Andrew K

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Excellent news....

Now that you've checked the 80mm lens you will need to check the camera with the other 2 lenses you have. I've seen more than a few lenses over the years where the collomation was out between the top and bottom lenses and they focussed at different points. You then have to replace the shims behind either the taking lens or the shutter unit so both lenses focus at the same point.....

I recently adjusted a mint blue dot 55mm wide angle that I never found sharp..that is until I realised the focus was out between both the lenses.....now it's brilliant.

As I said..not the first time I've seen it (I used to be a camera technician full time, and you see soe interesting things over the years.....)

If you have any questions send me a PM - Cheers
 

paul ron

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tlr lenses that may have been swapped taker n viewers generally have focusing problems because the lenses were never evenly focused again. viewers can be adjusted by screwing them in or out.

but if all your lenses show the same consistant problem as the op claimed, its safe to assume the screen is the fault and shimming will cure them all equally.
 

run2000

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This has been a worthwhile thread for me, because I've been dealing with a front-focusing Mamiya C220 as well. I ordered some M2 brass washers online (0.4mm thick), and used some paper clips to hold them in place while the ground glass was removed. Now everything is a whole lot better than it was, with the possible exception of my 55mm lens -- still front focusing a bit.

I didn't have any spare glass for comparing the film plane, so I tried using wax paper (grease-proof paper, baking paper) loaded onto some spare 120 spools I had lying around. It worked, but only just, at least enough to determine I wasn't making things worse.

It's well worth having a go at this if there's a consistent problem across multiple lenses.
 

paul ron

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run2000- It's well worth having a go at this if there's a consistent problem across multiple lenses.

Correct. If it were one lens giving you problems then only that lens will have to be adjsuted.

Id be curious to see the OPs results after refocusing using the same tests?
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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After calibrating the focus on the C220, I accidentally bought a C330. So I haven't shot the C220 since.
 

paul ron

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hahahahaha severe case of GAS?

well if you ever find the time... be nice to see a successful diy fix.
 
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