mamiya 67RZ vs. Leica-R

[Daniel_OB]

I have some portrait shooting indoor and camera from hand. The choice is or Mamiya 67RZ or Leica R (no tripod).

Standard Mamiya lens is F4 and speed should be around 1/125 sec to use it from hand. It will require delta400 film.

Standard Leica lens is F2 and speed can be 1/30. This yields Pan-F (iso50) as equivalent to Mamiya setup.

56x69 mm mamiya format is 2 times larger (linear) than 24x36. The print should be 16x20 inch.

Enlargement for mamiya is 7 times (Film delta400)
Enlargement for Leica is 13.4 times (Film Pan-F)

Pan-F has more than twice smaller grain than delta400. Will the print looks better from Leica (more details and accutance)?

Thanks

 

[Nick Zentena]

An RZ with even a smallish lens is a big package to hand hold.

Will the print look better? Depends on how you define better.

 

[Daniel_OB]

Nick

The "better" in this case means more details and higher accutance (or some call it sharpness)

 

[Nick Zentena]

If you can keep it from shaking I'd say yes. An 8x10 is only a 4X enlargement for the 6x7 negative.

But handheld the smaller camera is going to be much easier and more likely to not be hurt by shake.

 

[keithwms]

Sorry, I can't imagine comparing something easily handholdable like a leica R to an rz or rb, which are both really tough to handhold. You give up too many features of the rz or rb when you handhold. They simply weren't designed for that mode of operation. If you use the dual cable release so that you can use MLU then you might get acceptable results, but it surely won't be fun!

So... how about an rz with a good camera stand on casters, rather than a tripod? For example, I've been considering something like an Arkay 6JR-6 6' Mono-Stand Jr for shooting indoors with my rb. Camera stands are much easier to work with indoors than tripods, you can reposition in seconds if you get a good one. The good ones are not cheap though, and obviously you want a smooth floor. If you get the right rig, even system larger than 4x5 can be maneuvered with ease.

My advice: get the rz and a camera stand An rb would also be a good alternative for this approach, if the cost of the lenses and body is an issue.

Do it right and the rz or rb will far exceed the 35mm results.

 

[keithwms]

Of course, a third option would be a mamiya or pentax or contax 645. I know that there is one very fast lens in the mamiya 645 family, namely the manual focus 80mm f/1.9. All of these 645s are substantially more handholdable than an rz or rb and will also give some appreciable frame size advantage relative to 35mm.

 

[Roger Hicks]

... rz or rb, which are both really tough to handhold. You give up too many features of the rz or rb when you handhold...

Which features do you give up? I used to hand-hold my RB quite often, and I know plenty of others who do the same. Mind you, the electric back made life easier.

Another question for Daniel is why he needs 1/125. With half the enlargement ratio from the RZ, and more inertia in the camera, you should be able to use longer speeds with the bigger camera. I'd regard 1/30 with 35mm as almost certain to deliver detectable camera shake, as compared with 1/30 with the RB.

Personally I'd go for the hand-held 6x7, if tripod mounting (preferably, as you say, with a dolly) is not feasible.

 

[Steve Smith]

But handheld the smaller camera is going to be much easier and more likely to not be hurt by shake.

I regularly hand hold my RB and I would say that the extra weight is an advantage due to its inertia. This will reduce the chance of camera shake not increase it, unless you are physically struggling to hold the weight, which is unlikely.


Steve.

 

[catem]

I regularly hand hold my RB and I would say that the extra weight is an advantage due to its inertia. This will reduce the chance of camera shake not increase it, unless you are physically struggling to hold the weight, which is unlikely.


Steve.

It's easier to hand-hold the RZ and use slower shutter speeds than many other MF cameras, because of it's weight. There was a thread here some time ago comparing the RZ to the hasselblad (can't remember which model) re shutter speed and camera shake & the RZ came out the better performer at slower shutter speeds. Also, the widest ap of the 110mm lens (standard lens for the RZ) is f2.8 which helps.

I use mine hand-held all the time I always say when this question comes up, if Annie Leibovitz can do it, why can't we....

edit just noticed you say your lens is f4 - not sure what lens you have (not the 110 standard lens), which may make a difference - may be worth thinking of getting a faster lens for hand-held work.

 

[Nick Zentena]

I I always say when this question comes up, if Annie Leibovitz can do it, why can't we....
.

But she is mostly [totally?] shooting with lights. Making the flash duration her real shutter speed.

 

[catem]

Well, of course you can hand-hold using lights, that shouldn't be a problem. (but shutter speed is not the only issue with hand-holding - also I don't believe she always has used lights).

I don't (normally) use lights and it can work with this camera as well as any other, better than some

 

[Nick Zentena]

She used to use her little Nikon I think for available light.

I'm not saying a person can't handhold a RZ. I am saying it'll lead to a different sort of photography then a smaller easier to handle camera.

 

[Daniel_OB]

Catem
I will probably use 90 mm this time. I wrote F4 just for easier converting to Leica.

Larger mass of the RZ yes helps to prevent movement, but and mirror is of larger mass too. I have good hands and it is normal to me 1/15 sec for 85 mm lens on Leica or F6 Nikon. Thanks guys I beleive to you all, and it why I post a question to you. I will take one film and try RZ around with 1/30 sec, with hope I can do what you did with RZ from hands.

 

[Steve Smith]

.....and mirror is of larger mass too.

If it's anything like my RB67, the mirror movement hardly makes an impression. I think it is either on a cam or damped at the end of its travel.

I couldn't believe how quiet it was compared to the noise my Bronica ETRS mirror makes!


Steve.

 

[catem]

I

I couldn't believe how quiet it was compared to the noise my Bronica ETRS mirror makes!


Steve.

And it's nothing like the Pentax 67 for example

It's so difficult to answer these questions Daniel but I completely understand why you're asking them (I've done the same). They are such different cameras (I couldn't tell you anything about the leica so couldn't compare them). People use different cameras, and use them differently - they just suit different people as well as different shooting conditions.

Trying it out really is the only way in the end, & I'm sure you'll know when you try....good luck!

 

[keithwms]

I agree that you can handhold the rz or rb (I did handhold my rb in Manhattan for a whole day- what joy) but look, we're being asked to compare to a leica R, that is way smaller. Worlds apart. The shooting style will be completely different. I mean, the strength of 35mm is mobility, you can move around like a bumble bee. That is not a strength of an rz or rb. The strengths of these MF systems in my opinion are smoothness, detail and tonality approaching LF. You don't want to have to work at higher ISO just because you are shooting MF handheld.

Regarding what you give up when handhold an rz or rb, here is a short list that comes to mind:

-you can't quickly switch backs while you work. That is a big loss. If you're handholding you have to put the whole thing down... or tuck it very carefully under one arm? If the camera is mounted on a stand or tripod, that operation can be done in about 3 seconds without any change to the focus or the position of the camera. Of course, one of the really great things about the rzs and rbs is that you can go from film back to polaroid etc. very quickly. That, for me is one of *the* features of these systems. Makes a difference when you have a time-dependent subject.

-at least on the rb (N.b. I don't know about the latest innovations on the rz), you need a dual cable release to do MLU, so if you are trying to do that handheld you run out of hands! I like to use one hand for framing and focusing and one to trigger. If you are handholding then you have one hand to brace, one to focus, and the grip doesn't have an MLU detent (again, at least on my rb) so you have then have to get that double cable release in one of your hands somehow. That is a pain. And at least in my experience, MLU makes a really big difference. Those leaf shutters are marvelous... but not so much when you have all that mirror slap! Yes there is substantial mass damping but still you're not going to get past 1/60 or so without MLU and putting the thing in a support. Just for fun I'll try it later today. Anyway I almost always use MLU, I refuse to be forced to higher ISO just because of mirror slap.

There are other issues like altering the balance in your hands as you bellows focus... might bug some people but be fine for others. Also the rotating back function is fantastic, but it's also much easier to do when the camera is supported. Yes all these things can be done handheld but why, if you are in an indoor environment?

I use my rb with a metering prism, that is a bit heavy but that is my preferred way to work, and especially for a someone migrating from 35mm, I suspect that this would also be preferred. And it does add weight. The rz/rb are fine at waist level on a strap but not so nice to hold at eye level, in my opinion. That's a factor if you like a prism, as I do.

Anyway, obviously these things are very individual. I am merely reporting my general feelings based on my experiences with an rb. Rz would be a bit easier with all that electronica and slightly lighter weight, but it's still a far cry from the mobility of a 35mm slr in my opinion. After having tried a camera stand for a little bit, I have to say, it's a lot more fun that handholding. Again We are talking about indoor operation, right? Not street photography.

 

[Steve Smith]

you need a dual cable release to do MLU, so if you are trying to do that handheld you run out of hands!

You can use an ordinary single cable release for this. In this case, the shutter release on the front sets the mirror and the cable release trips the shutter.

I don't think I would want to use mirror up hand held though!


Steve.

 

[catem]

Keith - I have a nikon system I use when I want speed, versatility, and the ability to move & frame quickly.

I use the RZ for a different sort of shooting style. One thing I like - I don't own a prism and wouldn't imagine using one hand-held - is the waist level finder, which means, especially when you are shooting portraits of children, you don't have a camera covering your face. Nice for grown-ups too.

There are different ways of working - the RZ is a great camera that can be used in many ways. I also use it as a studio camera for still life work - mirror up, long exposures etc.....

It's unlikely to be the camera for every situation, but that wasn't Daniel's question.

 

[panastasia]

I've hand-held my RB with great success even at slow shutter speeds as low as 1/15 sec. When using electronic flash, especially studio types, it's a breeze. I've experienced more camera shake with smallish cameras such as 35mm at speeds lower than 1/60 sec. w/subject still.

Regards,
Paul

 

[Daniel_OB]

I use this RZ for studio only (on tripod) but I am going to experiment today with delta100 and 90 mm lens, from hand. Yes it is for indor not street shooting.
And yes photographs from RZ are just nice. I have 50 mm-M (I think MLU... and it is the better one), and 140 macro, and 90 F4.5. Would never give it for any Hasselblad or Rolley.