OP
OP
Well I think I'll start myself in to more serious medium format with the Mamiya M645.
Mamiya 645
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I've just sold my two M645 bodies (and am replacing them with a Super, whoops)... and I actually often find the Mamiya lenses TOO sharp/contrasty and modern for my liking - perhaps I am too used to low contrast older lenses, but they make all my b&w photos look "80's" to my eyes. For colour work, they are really really good - I have the normal 80mm f2.8 and a 210mm lens, and they are both really good lenses, full stop. I used these for (urk) weddings with the Portra films, and they are a really neat system with the inserts, and MF quality...
Marc
Marc
With Marc trading his M645s in for a Super, perhaps we should turn our attention now to which model Mamiya 645 would be best to get.
I believe the price difference isn't great, they all being very affordable. Right? So that leaves ergonomics, and all that.
I believe the price difference isn't great, they all being very affordable. Right? So that leaves ergonomics, and all that.
I've been shooting with my 645 for a several years, having sunk my money into Leicas rather than a Hassy. Now that I am older I have both a 500CM with a 40, 80 and 150 lens. My 645 stable has a 55, 80 and 150 lens. Some points I'd like to share:
I can see a difference at large enlargements The Hassy lens are tack sharp, too sharp almost for middle age women's photos, vanity and crows feet do not mix.
The 645 1000S I have replaced my M645 after the M version locked up after 27+ years of work. (Never in the repair shop)
I picked up a pair of 645 1000S bodies, WLF, 120 inserts 80mm lenses for far less than I paid for my 150mm Hassy lens.
For Under $ 225 I picked up a 55mm Mamiya and a 150mm with caps and filters and lens pouches. So for under $ 400.00 some dollars I had two systems. I gave one to a guy in my wedding as a gift for all his help. @ 19 years old he was blown away and the creativitiy that comes through that camera in his hands gives me hope for the future of MF.
I would stick to the 1000S format. Its all there, self timer, interchangable lenses, mirror lock up, multiple exposure, tripod socket (J models do not have a tripod socket)
The only downside of the 645 format is if you have a WL finder. It is hard to do a tall image if you have a WLF. So if you shoot slides or alway in the verticle format, pick up a prisim.
I admire the newer Mamiyas AFDII because you can attach modern currently available digital backs, but for the money, I'll wait. I picked up the Hassy camera and lenses because I am now at an age where affording one used is possible. I love to shoot with it. If you have the money, get Hassy, if you have the burning creativity and utility bills, house and car payment etc, get the 645 1000S.
(Just keep an extra battery with you, the camera will not shoot without a working battery. Mine last 2 to 3 years, but have had one fail in one year because even though the store package is new looking, the battery inside could be years old.)
One of the most interesting things about using a medium format camera is the smiles and nods of the retired and the perfect question from the young... "Wow man, how many megapixels is that camera"
There are many lens options in the m645 and 645AF collection. I have three 80mm lenses for my 645 AFD and pro: the 80/2.8 AF, the 80 macro, and the fun 80/1.9. I use them all routinely, for totally different purposes. (and they are all quite inexpensive)
The apo lenses are something to behold, if you need longer focal lengths. Just for fun, I sometimes mount them on a nikon body with an inexpensive adapter. The 200/2.8 is very nice for this. I had the 300/4.5 apo AF but sold it- I just don't use AF enough to justify it, but it is a superb lens.
The lens (almost) all mamiya 645 users wish they could afford is the 28/4.5D, which is comparable to a 17mm on a 35mm camera.
The apo lenses are something to behold, if you need longer focal lengths. Just for fun, I sometimes mount them on a nikon body with an inexpensive adapter. The 200/2.8 is very nice for this. I had the 300/4.5 apo AF but sold it- I just don't use AF enough to justify it, but it is a superb lens.
The lens (almost) all mamiya 645 users wish they could afford is the 28/4.5D, which is comparable to a 17mm on a 35mm camera.
I'm in the same boat.... lusting over MF cameras. Would someone be so kind to list M645 models in terms of what each one have and lack? I know earlier models have an exchangeable back and some do not... and someone mentioned J not having tripod hole. But what else? I found a Wiki article on this camera but it only says things like "made for beginners" and it is not specific enough to be a useful tool for actually picking a camera.
A list would be pretty long. I'll just say that, looking at current prices, the best starting point IMHO is the mamiya 645 pro. It's highly modular and will do pretty much anything you want... at very low price. The one drawback is that it does require a battery. But it's a small one and the camera is not power hungry. I actually prefer my pro to my 645 afd for many purposes.
How about the problems I have read about with the PRO as far a durability??? Is it really an issue or is it a "nit" that gets "picked"
Well I have had zero durability issues with the pro. And I am not kind to my cameras! I mean, the pro went up a 30 ft ham-radio tripod that got blown over and it was fine...
If I had any complaint about the build of the pro, I'd say the little battery compartment cover could be a bit more robust, you can lose the cover pretty easily so I'd put tape over that.
What I like best about the pro (versus the newer VF-integrated bodies) is that you can go big or go small. Go small means WLF and no winder; go big means winder + prism. In the small configuration, the thing is a perfect hiking companion. The 645 AFD and the later models do not offer the small option, which I think is a shame. When I shoot the afd, most people think I'm doing video, it just looks big.
If I had any complaint about the build of the pro, I'd say the little battery compartment cover could be a bit more robust, you can lose the cover pretty easily so I'd put tape over that.
What I like best about the pro (versus the newer VF-integrated bodies) is that you can go big or go small. Go small means WLF and no winder; go big means winder + prism. In the small configuration, the thing is a perfect hiking companion. The 645 AFD and the later models do not offer the small option, which I think is a shame. When I shoot the afd, most people think I'm doing video, it just looks big.
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Someone incorrectly stated that the M645J doesn’t have a tripod socket –it does as do all the cameras of the Mamiya 645 system.
The cameras were introduced in the following order starting in 1975… M645… M645 1000s… M645J… 645 Super… 645 Pro… 645 Pro TL… 645 E.
Camerapedia has a decent article discussing the features of the early M645 cameras. The Super added interchangeable backs. The Pro was an upgrade with a stronger film advance and automated compatibility with the three leaf shutter lenses that were introduced with the camera. The Pro TL added TTL flash automation (with the proper Metz module). And the final manual focus camera, the 645 E, was a budget version that did away with the interchangeable backs and finders.
The film inserts and most importantly all the manual focus lenses will work with any of these cameras... for that reason all are equally capable of providing spectacular photos. Keep in mind that all the cameras have electronic shutters that run off a 6-volt battery. I’ve found that the battery will last for years and will only quit when you are in the middle of your most important shoot (always pack a spare!).
The cameras were introduced in the following order starting in 1975… M645… M645 1000s… M645J… 645 Super… 645 Pro… 645 Pro TL… 645 E.
Camerapedia has a decent article discussing the features of the early M645 cameras. The Super added interchangeable backs. The Pro was an upgrade with a stronger film advance and automated compatibility with the three leaf shutter lenses that were introduced with the camera. The Pro TL added TTL flash automation (with the proper Metz module). And the final manual focus camera, the 645 E, was a budget version that did away with the interchangeable backs and finders.
The film inserts and most importantly all the manual focus lenses will work with any of these cameras... for that reason all are equally capable of providing spectacular photos. Keep in mind that all the cameras have electronic shutters that run off a 6-volt battery. I’ve found that the battery will last for years and will only quit when you are in the middle of your most important shoot (always pack a spare!).
OP
OP
I'm looking at the M645 1000s
It's the most 'sophisticated' of the older ones.
Not bad.
Have a look at the models with interchangeable backs (Super upwards, though the E doesn't, i believe), see if they cost much more than the 1000s.
If not, a very nice feature that, interchangeable backs!
Not bad.
Have a look at the models with interchangeable backs (Super upwards, though the E doesn't, i believe), see if they cost much more than the 1000s.
If not, a very nice feature that, interchangeable backs!
OP
OP
Is the 645 Super battery dependant? I have just read in a few places that the super feels flimsy...
MattKing
Moderator
All of the Mamiya 645 cameras are battery dependant, but the 6 volt battery they take can be found fairly easily, and quite cheaply as well, over the internet (search for dog collar batteries???:confused
.When the Super came out, the appearance and finishing was quite different from previous models, and some thought it appears less robust. That probably is because more of the surface materials are high grade/high strength plastic, rather than leatherette on metal.
The core is, however, metal.
The durability issues relate to the winding gears on the Super - they probably weren't as strong as they needed to be to be used with the power winder. They were upgraded in the Pro.
That being said, there are a lot of Supers out there (including one in my bag, and one I sold recently) that are fine. I just make a point of only using my power winder with my 645 Pro.
Hope this helps.
Matt
OP
OP
It does help. I want a camera with interchangeable backs but I think I'll get serious with medium format with the M645 1000s and upgrade in a little while.
With the Super there is a back up 1/60 shutter release in case the battery dies. This is similar to the Nikon F3. Which reminds me, I need to get a new battery, it's been quite a while.
My favorite lens is the 35mm. It's quite wide and I've made some good enlargements with it. In any case I think this system is a very good deal for us middle class hobbyists on a small budget. I also own the 55-110 and the 105-210. I had the 150 LF but my son lost it while borrowing it on a trip up north. The 50 TS would be marvelous but it's pretty expensive when you can find one for sale.
My favorite lens is the 35mm. It's quite wide and I've made some good enlargements with it. In any case I think this system is a very good deal for us middle class hobbyists on a small budget. I also own the 55-110 and the 105-210. I had the 150 LF but my son lost it while borrowing it on a trip up north. The 50 TS would be marvelous but it's pretty expensive when you can find one for sale.
The "J" model is apparently considered the basic and entry level model. I see them in used market quite inexpensively. Other than having non-exchangeable backs, what does it NOT have that might affect its usability? I'm not big on advanced features but it does bother me if Mamiya has cut often used features to make it an entry level model.
MattKing
Moderator
The biggest problem with any of the older models (the "J" model or the 1000s and others) is that while the lenses and inserts are compatible with the later manual focus models (Super, Pro, Pro Tl) almost none of the other accessories are.
Things like prism finders can be as expensive as the bodies, and can be harder to find.
The later manual focus models (Super, Pro, Pro Tl) are very consistent in how they handle. If you think it likely that you will be moving to them, I'd start there instead.
The "645E" model is an exception among the newer models. That being said, in hindsight I would prefer to have one as backup to my 645 Pro, rather than the Super body that current fulfills that roll.
Matt
Things like prism finders can be as expensive as the bodies, and can be harder to find.
The later manual focus models (Super, Pro, Pro Tl) are very consistent in how they handle. If you think it likely that you will be moving to them, I'd start there instead.
The "645E" model is an exception among the newer models. That being said, in hindsight I would prefer to have one as backup to my 645 Pro, rather than the Super body that current fulfills that roll.
Matt
MattKing
Moderator
If it is the one I bought you wouldn't recognize it with the power winder and the new 150 mm lens
MattKing
Moderator
OP
OP
Well, I just bought an M645. $310 with waist level finder and cds prism and 80mm lens. Also strap, prism case, and all caps. It is in almost new condition. I should recieve it Wednesday. I can't wait.
I have reconverted to the Mamiya 645 after an absence of over 20 years. I have a Super and 2 ProTLs and I have to say that the quality of images produced by the lenses are almost a match for my Contax Zeiss gear. I particularly love the 35mm, 150 2.8, 55-110, 105-210 and 145 f4 SF lenses. The beauty of medium format after shooting 35mm or digital is that every shot becomes an 'occasion' - I find myself taking much more time and care for each shot. I shoot a lot of macro and micro work with my Contaxes - I just wish I could afford to buy the Mamiya bellows. Gotta start saving and checking ebay...
OP
OP
I know think I want a Pro TL too so I can have interchangeable backs....now to find one at a good price.
If I understand correctly, the opinion of most of you Mamiya 645 owners, is that you regard the 645 lenses on par with the RB lenses????
Also is the power winder the grip that allows you to hold the camera like a 35mm SLR? Does the grip and the prism and the back make it weigh a ton?
Also is the power winder the grip that allows you to hold the camera like a 35mm SLR? Does the grip and the prism and the back make it weigh a ton?
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