Mamiya 645 - First frame is always half burnt

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

Hi, sorry if this is not the right technical term, but this is how the first frame of every single roll I develop looks like (see attached photo). The top half is burnt. This happened with 5 rolls, so I've started to think it's something I do wrong when I load the film.

Honestly I follow the steps that are shown in several YouTube videos, I aligning the START on the roll to the START indicator on the insert, put the insert back in and rotate until 1.

I was wondering if anyone can clearly recognize this problem and tell me what I do wrong

Thank you!

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

Is this slide film or negative film?
Can you show us the film itself, including the edges, the numbers and letters and the space between frames?
A backlit shot with a cel phone is often enough - a white computer screen can provide that back light.
Is there any chance that the insert you are using is for 220 film?

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

Thanks for the quick reply! I've attached a photo of the negative C-41. As you see the second photo is fine. The insert has the 120 number on it.

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

The number 41 should be adjacent to the middle of the first frame.
Before that frame there should be nothing but clear film - there should be no fogged area.
Is this lab processed? If not, how are you processing the film?
Is there any chance this is 220 film?

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

MattKing said:
The number 41 should be adjacent to the middle of the first frame.
Before that frame there should be nothing but clear film - there should be no fogged area.
Is this lab processed? If not, how are you processing the film?
Is there any chance this is 220 film?

I double checked, the film is Portra 400 120. All five films were processed by the same lab for developing and scanning.

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

lozpop said:
I double checked, the film is Portra 400 120. All five films were processed by the same lab for developing and scanning.

You should talk to the lab about the fogged area.
That being said, the camera isn't advancing the film as far as my Mamiya 645 Pro - by about 1/3 0f a frame.
Is this what you have in the manual you are using, and are you doing what it says here:

(this is from the instructions for the Mamiya Super, but the inserts all work the same).
There remains one further possibility - your camera's winding system and frame counter may need service - the frame counter may be reading #1 too early.
Is your camera the original Mamiya 645, or one of the subsequent Mamiya 645 models?

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

Thanks, I will talk to the lab. I have a Mamiya 645 1000s, and what you've showed is exactly how I'm loading the film. And actually another piece of important information (that I forgot to mention, sorry) is that this happened with 2 different cameras (same 1000s model, I had to return the first one because of another issue), so wouldn't it be a big coincidence if two cameras had the exact same problem? That's why I thought that it's either something I'm doing wrong when loading the film or something the lab is doing wrong (which I'd be surprised by, since it's their job).

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

Does your camera give you 15 or 16 shots on a roll? The 1000s is like the models I have used - 15 shots per roll.
Can you show us the same sort of image of the last frame on the film? That may tell us if the whole set of images is too far toward the beginning of the film. If so you might be able to deal with this in the short term by just advancing the film an extra 3/4 of an inch before closing the back.
IIRC, there are some roller process lab machines designed in such a way that a small portion of the very beginning of a film will be fogged, but normally there is enough space before the first frame to ensure that no image is lost.
But if there is a problem at the lab level, they will most likely be glad to hear from you, because customer feedback is important to labs - they don't necessarily catch problems like this without customers telling them.
Do you have more than one insert? If so, it would be worth trying another.

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

The camera takes 15 shots per roll. I've attached a photo of the end of the roll. It's interesting because that part with the light leak (I clearly botched the exposition) is the 15th frame. But there is a big empty area after it.
I don't have another insert to try sadly. I will show this to the lab when I go get my next roll.

Sirius Glass · Mar 24, 2021

When you line up the arrows, stop a little short of the line. Also load film in dim light.

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
When you line up the arrows, stop a little short of the line. Also load film in dim light.

Thanks Just to make sure, you're saying I should stop before the Start line on the film reaches the Start indicator on the insert? Because unless I misunderstood, MattKing suggested to advance the film an extra 3/4 of an inch.

Sirius Glass · Mar 24, 2021

lozpop said:
Thanks Just to make sure, you're saying I should stop before the Start line on the film reaches the Start indicator on the insert? Because unless I misunderstood, MattKing suggested to advance the film an extra 3/4 of an inch.

Yes stop before. That will keep the light off the beginning of the roll. I had the problem with a Hasselblad back and that took care of the problem until I could get the film back serviced.

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Yes stop before. That will keep the light off the beginning of the roll. I had the problem with a Hasselblad back and that took care of the problem until I could get the film back serviced.

Perfect, thank you!

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
When you line up the arrows, stop a little short of the line. Also load film in dim light.

Sirius,
I believe that the OP needs to advance the film more, not less, because the first frame is too close to the beginning of the film.
There also appears to be more unexposed area on the film after the last frame than is normal - my 645 Pro puts the middle of the last frame adjacent to the 12 and the 55.

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Yes stop before. That will keep the light off the beginning of the roll. I had the problem with a Hasselblad back and that took care of the problem until I could get the film back serviced.

That sounds like the solution for a back that leaves you with a cut-off final frame.

Sirius Glass · Mar 24, 2021

MattKing said:
Sirius,
I believe that the OP needs to advance the film more, not less, because the first frame is too close to the beginning of the film.
There also appears to be more unexposed area on the film after the last frame than is normal - my 645 Pro puts the middle of the last frame adjacent to the 12 and the 55.

I had the problem, advancing the film makes it worse. If less film is unwound, less gets light struck.

lozpop · Mar 24, 2021

Although I see what MattKing is saying — giving more margin at the beginning of the film would clear the first frame from that burnt area. I will try both methods, thanks!

MattKing · Mar 24, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
I had the problem, advancing the film makes it worse. If less film is unwound, less gets light struck.

Light striking isn't really the problem - the frame is too close to the beginning of the film.

shutterfinger · Mar 25, 2021

When loading the film insert the narrow part of the backing paper into the slot in the spool until the paper is against the spool opening then fold the lead edge back opposite the direction the spool turns when winding and hold, wind until the backing paper is starting to put pressure on the bent over end then check the arrow alignment. A little past the arrows aligned will not cause a problem.
The backing paper will slip out of the spool if not locked in.

cramej · Mar 25, 2021

I see two issues:

Your film is not being wound tight. There is fogging on the edge of the entire roll.
The lab is probably using a taped leader type processor and not dip'n'dunk. That's just about the right amount of film that would be left out of the processor cartridge before it is taped to the leader and put through the machine. If that's the case, there's nothing the lab is doing wrong and nothing you can do about it except switch labs.

MattKing · Mar 25, 2021

What cramej posted about the taped leader type of processor is what probably happens at the lab - if your camera and insert were advancing properly to the first frame it wouldn't matter.
When I'm loading my camera, I put the film into the insert with the paper retaining strip still on it. I break and remove the strip, and then carefully pull the backing paper around and attach it to the take-up spool, which I turn until it has full purchase. I keep tension on the feed spool throughout, in order to prevent light leaking past the backing paper. Then, before advancing any farther, I insert the insert into the camera (in my case, the camera back).
It is only when the insert is in the camera that I advance the film further (using my thumb on the edge of the spool usually) until the start mark lines up.
In the OP's case, I would suggest advancing it about 3/4 of an inch further before closing the back, to see if that compensates for the frame spacing issue. With the Mamiya 645 there is usually more unexposed film at the other end anyways.

Wallendo · Mar 25, 2021

Properly loaded, there should be areas of clear space at each end of the roll. Unfortunately, when getting negatives back from a roll, both ends are usually discarded and thrown away. As a result, we really don't know how well your camera is advancing the film. Nevertheless, if this was a film advancement issue, the defective part of the image would extend to the edge of the film and there would be no fogging. Advancing the film a few more centimeters before closing might save the first frame, but runs the risk of cutting off a portion of the 15th frame. Unlike 35mm, no part of a 120 roll should ever be fogged as a routine event.

If you choose to keep using the same lab, ask them to return your next set of negatives uncut so they you/we can evaluate the proximal and distal ends of the negative.

I have a m645 and m645 1000s. The only times I have had an issue was with a new film where I misread the labelling on the paper and a single roll where I suspect the film was improperly taped. That is not the case here, and if it were, we would have extensively discussed this on Photrio.

I am fairly certain that this is a lab issue of some sort. For the time being, you can ignore your first shot, or advance an extra 2.25 cm and be careful not to make an important shot with #15.

MattKing · Mar 25, 2021

Wallendo said:
Advancing the film a few more centimeters before closing might save the first frame, but runs the risk of cutting off a portion of the 15th frame. Unlike 35mm, no part of a 120 roll should ever be fogged as a routine event.

Its tough to apply my experience exactly, due to the difference in our respective Mamiya 645 models, but my experience is that the Mamiya 645 models resolve the 15 exposure or 16 exposure dilemma on 120 film with 15 exposures and more than the minimum space unused at the end of the roll.
In contra-distinction, the 645 backs for my RB67 and the Hasselblad 645 backs (IIRC) squeeze in a 16th frame instead.
And I think cramej is correct - those leader card processors can result in a bit of fog on the first little bit of a 120 roll, because of the way that the loading magazines work.

Donald Qualls · Mar 25, 2021

I wouldn't call the 15 vs. 16 frames a "dilemma" -- 16 645 frames is the exact same length as 12 6x6 frames (I process enough of both to be sure of this). Why Mamiya and a couple others chose to only give 15 frames I couldn't say.

In any case, you're correct in understanding that some processing machines require exposing a short bit of the film tail -- but it's the tail that gets fogged, not the head, because it's that end that gets unrolled when the film is processed; the taped, head end is the last to come out. If the processing machine is fogging into the first frame, it's happening at the end of the roll, as the machine sees it, possibly indicating that the feed cassette is being opened too soon (i.e. someone is in a hurry, trying to maximize their roll count).

Peltigera · Mar 25, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I wouldn't call the 15 vs. 16 frames a "dilemma" -- 16 645 frames is the exact same length as 12 6x6 frames (I process enough of both to be sure of this). Why Mamiya and a couple others chose to only give 15 frames I couldn't say.

In any case, you're correct in understanding that some processing machines require exposing a short bit of the film tail -- but it's the tail that gets fogged, not the head, because it's that end that gets unrolled when the film is processed; the taped, head end is the last to come out. If the processing machine is fogging into the first frame, it's happening at the end of the roll, as the machine sees it, possibly indicating that the feed cassette is being opened too soon (i.e. someone is in a hurry, trying to maximize their roll count).

In post #9, the OP states that it is frame 15 that has the problem.

Mamiya 645 - First frame is always half burnt

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