Making your own film

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rmazzullo

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Hello PE,

The last two posts were very informative. They add more details to what other automation would be needed to make this happen on a basic level. While it is really outside of the topic, can you discuss the other steps involved in coating color materials, when you have some time?

Also, this is the second time you have mentioned rhodium in this thread. I missed this if it was discussed in an another thread or posting.

How does adding rhodium chloride (or cadmium or mercury) change the emulsion?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Making a color coating formula

1. Dispersion formula

a. Select a coupler and a solvent (such as di-n ethyl lauramide) and an auxiliary solvent such as ethyl acetate (ETOAC). Mix the aux solvent and the solvent together and heat to near boiling of the ethyl acetate, then add the coupler and dissolve. (add more ETOAC as needed to keep in solution when cooled) (NOTE: sometimes, this coupler may be a mix of 2 - 4 couplers, some colorless and some colored, along with DIR and DIAR couplers to control image structure and color, it may also include an antioxidant)(NOTE: the coupler solvent and the amount used can be a curve shape modifier itself as noted below - the engineer is expected to use it as such in the design phase)

b. Prepare 10% gelatin (or whatever gel % your final coating is going to be made at + a small amount extra say to 12% total) and add a suitable surfactant.

c. Mix a + b and run immediately through a colloid mill. Keep running repeatedly until the mixture shows no oily residue and the dispersion looks like milk. Clean the mill with an appropriate solvent.

d. By an appropriate means, clear the ETOAC out of the dispersion so that all that remains is surfactant, coupler and gelatin in water. Dilute dispersion with water to the appropriate gelatin level to match the coating to be made.

2. Prepare emulsion formula

a. Mix 1a and 1a from emulsion formula together and use in prepping the coating formula.

b. Add curve shape moderators to mixture to adjust the ratio of dye formation to silver development to optimize curve shape. It is rare that the dye curve is the same as the silver curve, and it is even rarer that all couplers give matched curve shapes with even the same emulsion due to reactivity rates, therefore the amounts of coupler used, along with moderators force all 3 layers to give a neutral image rather than crossover. This is an exacting science. Otherwise you get a poor image. This is too broad a subject to discuss here.

3. Coat as before.


This description is for chromogenic color materials and does not include interlayers and overcoats for color, nor does it include Fischer type coupler coatings or dye bleach (Ilfochrome) color materials. Names are, for the most part, left out to protect the innocent.

For specific information, see the article by Rodgers and Kapecki in the Kirk Othmer encyclopedia on photography, full details posted elsewhere on APUG, or the relevant patents available free from the US Patent office - online.

In color negative films, up to 4 couplers are used in the C, M and Y layers in some products, with different coupler solvents in each layer, and there are 9 different emulsion formulas, so this makes a total of many many emulsion and dispersion formulas coming together at the same time, particularly in cases where the 4 couplers cannot be mixed as in 1a above. That would make 12 coupler formulas and 9 emulsion formulas plus interlayer formulas, and the overcoat formula. Each interlayer is different, and the overcoat is different than any of these. By my count, some color formulas can take up to nearly 30 different items as I've shown here and in the last post to be properly prepared prior to coating.

A given film or paper may use one or two of these in common, but may contain dozens of differences to get the final desired result. The differences involve curve shape modifiers, emulsion used, etc. Therefore, NC, VC and UC Portra 160 films may use the same emulsions and couplers, but have different amounts of ingredients to achieve the differences in saturation but retain the same color characteristics and speeds.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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PE,

All kidding aside, once the B&W emulsion making and coating process is understood and put into practice (I was going to say 'mastered' but had a feeling that might be a long way off), it would seem that an attempt at color could be ''thought of" as multiples of similar preparation processes as B&W.

Would the attempt absolutely require more advanced preparation equipment to get results?
 
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Bob;

For chromogenic color, the couplers are custom made and not commercially available for any price AFAIK. For dye bleach, the ingredients are off the shelf items. The hardest part is hand coating in the dark. You have to buy IR safelights and IR goggles.

I prefer to think of any film making or paper making to be as much of an art as taking the photograph is. In that case, understanding is not needed, only mastery. Understanding is only needed for R&D, but if you have a formula, you make it and coat it. That is like the difference between a chef and a cook. The chef can do R&D, but a good cook can still turn out an excellent meal from a 'formula' while the chef can play on a theme and turn out a masterpiece or something new.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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PE,

Actually, I was wondering about IR safelights. Do you know how much IR light the emulsion can withstand (and for how long) before it is adversely affected?

I would have to locate sources of IR goggles, but I can cobble together an IR light source (groups of IR LED's in an enclosure) presuming the IR wavelength from the LED's won't ruin the film.

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Bob;

Any photographic emulsion is inherently totally blind to normal IR unless it is at the wavelength of heat (which is IR). Therefore, as long as you are not warming your darkroom with the IR safelight, it is a safe light. :D

All emulsions are sensitive to heat and that is why films, papers and raw emulsions must be refrigerated for best keeping.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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defects in coating...

PE,

You had mentioned a few times that emulsion can be brushed or sprayed onto a support. To your knowledge, has anyone ever tried to screen print this kind of emulsion onto a substrate? Conceivably, if the screen were fine mesh stainless steel, and heated, you could lay down a coat of emulsion and the temperature of the platen / emulsion coat could be high enough to smooth out somewhat evenly. If possible, it *might* even make an attempt to coat a second emulsion before the first had fully dried within reach.

Maybe.

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Bob;

Yes and No. Yes you can coat using a screen, and no you probably cannot do a second layer on a wet first layer.

And, you learn ever so much more by doing rather than talking about it.

After all, it is a Labor Atory not a Lab Oratory.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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PE,

I am acquiring tools and supplies to do emulsion mixing and hand coating at this time. It is clear, however, that all of these questions have filled in more than a few blanks and allowed all of us to get some more details on this subject. I agree there is no substitute for experience, but having access to an extensive resource such as yourself should not (and cannot) be taken for granted, or easily dismissed. Opportunities like this do not come along very often.

I do apologize for pouncing on you with all of the questions, but the only bad questions are the ones that aren't asked. Unfortunately, I have a few hundred more lined up. Just not all at once.

Thanks,

Bob M.
 

rmazzullo

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antihalation coating?

Hello PE,

Can an anti-halation coating be considered when hand coating film? As you have pointed out, any second coating would have to occur (ideally) after the first emulsion coat has dried.

If so, what ingredients would be used, and what would be the best way to implement this?

Thanks,

Bob M.
 
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I don't coat an AH layer. See the posted photos using film my students coated for examples. I have mentioned AH layers before with a specific dye.

In the early days of coating, the AH layer was on the back. If you can sacrifice a stop in speed, you can put the dye in the emulsion layer. It also improves sharpness.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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scaling proportions downwards...

Hello PE,

Is it possible, or wise, to scale down an emulsion formula to fine tune the mix before rerunning the build with larger amounts of (expensive) chemicals?

If possible, this would allow you to try different combinations of chemicals, mixing methods or coating methods to perfect a particular formula with minimal use of resources.

Does scaling back introduce errors that are avoided by using larger amounts, even for a first effort?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Scaling almost always introduces some change to the emulsion. The Azo like emulsion that I have seems to scale nicely and be tolerant of errors. But then, that was my goal. The same seems to be true of my enlarging paper emulsion. The film emulsion is different every time I make it.

One big factor is adding the precise amount of a given chemical, so for example, how precise is adding 1 drop of something as opposed to 1 ml, as opposed to 100 ml? These are dilemmas that I face with some formulas. And, the answer is not dilution of the ingredient in question because the act of dilution changes the formula.

So, the direct answer is, "It depends". I can look at some formulas and say they will scale well, and others I have to guess.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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Hello PE,

Do you know if there are any plastics which can be safely used in emulsion mixing, or are we limited to stainless steel and titanium?

Thanks again for all yor help,

Bob M.
 
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Andrew, this has been discussed in other threads. It is possible, but you might want to look at all of the comments in those other locations here.

PE
 

rmazzullo

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Problems making film emulsion...

Hello PE,

A few times you have mentioned that making film emulsion is more difficult than paper emulsion, which you said is 'more forgiving'. Can you please elaborate on the different problems that you have encountered?

Thank you,

Bob M.
 
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You are pushing the emulsion to higher speed chemically. This causes problems with fog, and introduces a lot more steps which introduce more chance for error.

Film emulsion tends to vary more in speed, contrast and fog as a result. (well, it didn't at EK, but here at home.......)

PE
 

rmazzullo

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Thanks, PE..

Is there a way that film emulsion can be tested for speed, contrast, fog, etc., before you coat it? Are these attributes only determined after the emulsion is added to a coating formula, coated and evaluated?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Bob;

I wish this was more than just thee and me. I'm sure there are others out there who could contribute. Anyhow.......

Ok, a paper emulsion takes about 1 hour to make and about 2 hours to coat. Drying for 4 hours will give a coating ready for testing. The whole written formula can be 1 paragraph long and use 3 chemicals.

A film emulsion takes up to 5 DAYS to make and about 2 hours to coat. It must dry overnight on film or glass to harden enough to withstand processing. The formula may be several pages long and may use a dozen chemicals in several long steps.

In no case can an emulsion be easily tested for actual speed, contrast or fog without making some sort of coating, drying it, exposing it and processing it.

PE
 

ben-s

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Bob;

I wish this was more than just thee and me. I'm sure there are others out there who could contribute. Anyhow.......
...

FWIW, I've been watching this thread with considerable interest, but I don't feel able to add anything particularly useful at the moment.

Surely there must be others with knowledge that would augment and support what PE is telling us?
Has somone scared them off the 'net?
 
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