Will the quality of the prints be any different to a C-41 film?
I have only ever shot color negative and had them developed and printed into 10x15cm prints.
Just had a word with my local camera shop, and they said it could be done in theory but that it would be quite expensive..
Back in the day, dye-transfer prints were the best and by far the most expensive for printing from reversal film.Thirty and even forty years ago almost any color lab could make high quality color prints from slides. I know because I had many slides printed back then. Sometimes the print would be a little more contrasty but that was almost always acceptable. There were no heroics involved, just some time and some money.
Negatives are "exposed" again during the printing process, so any issues with the original can be corrected then.
True, but also, negative film can RECORD a higher dynamic range than slide film, so there is less chance of there being any issues.
For example, if you shoot a high brightness range scene with both slide film and negative film, at say two stops over normal exposure, any image loss will be much greater with the slide film than with the negative film.
Even at normal exposure, a high brightness range scene may not entirely be recorded on slide film without some loss, but a negative film will be more likely to record everything intact. Having such greater range is what benefits the photographer.
This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.
It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.
Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)
They are not the same film. Agfa made a maskless C41 film. And the CR was an E6 (aerial?) film.This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.
It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.
Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)
This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.
It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.
Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)
Please show how you get 10 stops of useful information from any slide film.
It is you who are incorrect. Again overexpose any slide film 3 stops over box speed and it will not begin to compare with any negative film overexposed 3 stops. The inherent quality in negative film that enables it to do this is its low contrast. Any film has density limits that determine its dynamic range, and negative film with lower contrast reaches those limits at a much lower rate with increasing exposure than slide film therefore can handle more exposure before the density limits are reached. Also it is my understanding that the density capability of negative film is higher than slide film. Judging the dynamic range or any parameter of a film in a cross process is unreliable.
What kind of film are you using to create the internegative?I personally prefer the internegative darkroom route, but doubt that anyone does that commercially anymore.
Six or seven years ago, I bought an Epson V500 scanner and an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 printer just to make prints from 35mm Kodachromes, Ektachromes, Agfachrome CT18 slides. Quite frankly the prints, mostly 4x6 inch with occasionally a 5x7, were superior to the prints that I had previously had Kodak print for me from the same films in the "good old days". I had to quit because we ran out of room for the prints. I am not a fan of most D______L but I would not try to make color prints from slides any other way. Now making B&W prints from those slides is different......Regards!Thirty and even forty years ago almost any color lab could make high quality color prints from slides. I know because I had many slides printed back then. Sometimes the print would be a little more contrasty but that was almost always acceptable. There were no heroics involved, just some time and some money.
Six or seven years ago, I bought an Epson V500 scanner and an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 printer just to make prints from 35mm Kodachromes, Ektachromes, Agfachrome CT18 slides. Quite frankly the prints, mostly 4x6 inch with occasionally a 5x7, were superior to the prints that I had previously had Kodak print for me from the same films in the "good old days". I had to quit because we ran out of room for the prints. I am not a fan of most D______L but I would not try to make color prints from slides any other way. Now making B&W prints from those slides is different......Regards!
What kind of film are you using to create the internegative?
Please show how you get 10 stops of useful information from any slide film.
It is you who are incorrect. Again overexpose any slide film 2 or 3 stops over box speed and it will not begin to compare with any negative film overexposed 2 or 3 stops. The inherent quality in negative film that enables it to do this is its low contrast. Any film has density limits that determine its dynamic range, and negative film with lower contrast reaches those limits at a much lower rate with increasing exposure than slide film therefore can handle more exposure before the density limits are reached. Also it is my understanding that the density capability of negative film is higher than slide film. Judging the dynamic range or any parameter of a film in a cross process is unreliable.
Rollei C200N was supposed to be discontinued with remaining stock to last into 2017. It's it possible they are marketing something else as CN200, now? That would make it possible for both to be the same. I tried the CR200 and it went all yellow.But the latest stuff is entirely different. The color palette is very natural and not overly saturated. The yellow tint is completely gone. Given the Rollei markets the stuff for cross processing it makes sense that it is the same film stock.
I'm not here to "prove" anything to folks that won't put any effort into educating themselves. Especially those who insist on mischaracteriizing both my comments and the issue at hand.
You keep talk about over exposing slide film. My original post, and anywhere else that I've opined on the topic, made very clear that slide film needs to be correctly exposed. A half stop off EITHER WAY will be noticeable on a slide. One stop off EITHER WAY will ruin the image. But having a properly exposed image and the range that can be captured in that image are two entirely different things. I was also clear that there are some slide films with very restricted range that give black shadows with no image information; I even listed the names of some of them for you. But all slide films are not created equal. Both Provia and Ektachrome can capture remarkable shadow detail, easily covering ten stops or more with retrievable image information.
As for the Rollei film, I had read that this was an "aerial" film. I have also used that film and it is very yellow. You can find many posts here that make the same point. But the latest stuff is entirely different. The color palette is very natural and not overly saturated. The yellow tint is completely gone. Given the Rollei markets the stuff for cross processing it makes sense that it is the same film stock.
I think he is talking about scanning. As in one does the scan, the shadows look very dark so one boosts the shadows in post much as one would with a digital camera file. From my own experience my scans from Provia could have the shadows boosted at least as well as say files from the Leica M8 I used to have (but with less noise). The downsides are very poor shadow resolution IMHE. However there is a kicker. A scanned slide always seems to look more contrasty to me than it does when projected where the contrast looks fairly natural. To some extent boosting the shadows in post is only making the file look someway towards how it would look projected. Therefore what looks like an amazing shadow recovery is perhaps not that amazing really. Personally I reckon there is around 7 maybe 7.5 stops in Provia once recovered in post, I don't have any proof of that but would take some convincing of anyone claiming much more.
You said earlier that negative film does not have any inherent qualities that give it more dynamic range than slide film. That is absolutely incorrect and it is you who needs to be educated so I explained earlier that it does.
A film with a wide dynamic range does not require precise exposure as slide film does and a thus a film with a range of 10-12 stops would not require such a precise exposure as slide film does. It would have several stops of headroom to allow for exposure errors, to produce a quality image, nearly what negative film does, for almost any high brightness range scene one might encounter.
Slide films do not have such headroom due to much less range than negative film.
And another point I'd like to make about over and underexposure of negative film: On the one hand we keep on being told how great and important the orange mask is to neutralise dye impurities. And or course slide doesn't have that. But in some documents about Vision3 film Kodak says that under and overexposure leads to colour inaccuracies (the curves don't fit as well anymore is probably what they said). That means if you want to use negative film to its maximum potential you should expose spot on, just as you do with slide film.
In this age, for most people, if they wanted to have perfectly calibrated colour they wouldn't shoot film in the first place. I don't think people look at slides and think that they wished those dye impurities were corrected. Isn't that film look the whole point for still using it? So then I don't understand many of the arguments made agains slide. Yeah, you have to expose it just right, fair enough...
In this age, for most people, if they wanted to have perfectly calibrated colour they wouldn't shoot film in the first place. I don't think people look at slides and think that they wished those dye impurities were corrected.
What "dye impurities", and where??
But the first part of your statement is certainly correct!
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