Making prints from slide film? Is the quality any different?

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Les Sarile

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Will the quality of the prints be any different to a C-41 film?

I have only ever shot color negative and had them developed and printed into 10x15cm prints.

I could easily make prints that small from scans of 110 Kodacolor film . . . :wink:

Comparing "quality" of slides compared to color C41 will be hard to tell in tiny prints. However, given that most people these days get misinterpreted colors from their C41 results, slides require no interpretation and that is a great advantage.

The obvious other advantages of slides are less discernible grain at the same ISO, sharpness and resolution. Given the small print requirement, you will have considerable cropping flexibility.

Here's an example of a full res 4000dpi scan of Fuji Velvia -> http://www.fototime.com/A9E529B7EB62AB3/orig.jpg

This film can achieve detail far exceeding my Nikon scanner.
 

MattKing

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First - slide film processed normally gives you slides - nothing else.
Secondly, the reason to shoot slide film is because you end up with slides. They are nice to view, and wonderful if you project.
Thirdly, you can get good colour prints via slide film + internegative + "regular" colour printing.
Fourthly, you can also get good colour prints via slide film + scanning + printing from the scans. I much prefer the prints that are made from digital files on to colour photographic (not inkjet) paper.
All of the following images come from scanned slides. The scans have been resized into much smaller files, to meet APUG's requirements. At normal sizes, the files are eminently suitable for printing.
Both of these two are from 135 slides. The "fish" picture prints well at 11x14:

upload_2017-7-22_12-0-12.png upload_2017-7-22_12-5-19.png

These next two are from medium format slides. They both print very well at sizes larger than 11x14.

upload_2017-7-22_12-16-30.png upload_2017-7-22_12-44-54.png

I'm the first one to advocate for analogue processes and products. But you shouldn't exclude yourself from one analogue product - a good quality slide - because the means to get another product - a good quality print - may as a matter of reasonable convenience involve a digital intermediary.
 
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Thank you all for your replies, for now i'll just wait to see when the new E-100 becomes available and what price it has.
 

thuggins

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Just had a word with my local camera shop, and they said it could be done in theory but that it would be quite expensive..

Either your local camera shop still makes photochemical prints (rather doubtful) or they don't know what they are talking about. Almost all prints are made d!&!+@lly now by scanning. In my experience this is much easier and produces better results with slides than with a negative. With a slide, you have the original to check and compare against. Also with a slide you are starting out with higher contrast and more saturated colors. After have gone thru various film scanners, some better than others, I now just mount the macro lens and slide copier to my "electrical camera thingy" and email the file to CVS. Prints produced that way are better than any I've gotten from negatives.

Now to correct a couple of fictions that have been perpetuated here about transparency film. There is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of dynamic range. Velvia 50 has poor shadow detail, Velvia 100 has none (an awful film). I've just tried some of the Rollei stuff and it also blacks out shadows. Provia gives (and Ektachrome gave) amazing shadow detail. I have Provia slides that cover 12 stops and there is detail from the darkest to the brightest.

The same with highlights. I have never seen a slide with "blown out" highlights (as defined by that other technology where overexposure contains no image information at all, and is just featureless white). Film just doesn't work that way. Even in overexposed areas there will still be some detail, just the same as your eyes perceive brightly lit areas.

This brings us to the fiction that slide film is difficult to expose. It is very easy to expose, it just must be exposed properly. Negatives are "exposed" again during the printing process, so any issues with the original can be corrected then. With a slide you get one chance to get it right. This is a feature, not a bug. You have to think about the light and think about what you are doing. In the end the entire image benefits from the process. I use everything from 70 year old selenium meters to the latest all automatic technical wonders, and everything in between. As long and the meter is correct and the shutter is working right, you will get a good exposure the vast majority of the time.
 

Pieter12

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Thirty and even forty years ago almost any color lab could make high quality color prints from slides. I know because I had many slides printed back then. Sometimes the print would be a little more contrasty but that was almost always acceptable. There were no heroics involved, just some time and some money.
Back in the day, dye-transfer prints were the best and by far the most expensive for printing from reversal film.
 

RPC

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Negatives are "exposed" again during the printing process, so any issues with the original can be corrected then.

True, but also, negative film can RECORD a higher dynamic range than slide film, so there is less chance of there being any issues.

For example, if you shoot a high brightness range scene with both slide film and negative film, at say two stops over normal exposure, any image loss will be much greater with the slide film than with the negative film.

Even at normal exposure, a high brightness range scene may not entirely be recorded on slide film without some loss, but a negative film will be more likely to record everything intact. Having such greater range is what benefits the photographer.
 

thuggins

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True, but also, negative film can RECORD a higher dynamic range than slide film, so there is less chance of there being any issues.

For example, if you shoot a high brightness range scene with both slide film and negative film, at say two stops over normal exposure, any image loss will be much greater with the slide film than with the negative film.

Even at normal exposure, a high brightness range scene may not entirely be recorded on slide film without some loss, but a negative film will be more likely to record everything intact. Having such greater range is what benefits the photographer.

This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.

It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.

Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)
 

RPC

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This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.

It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.

Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)

Please show how you get 10 stops of useful information from any slide film.

It is you who are incorrect. Again overexpose any slide film 2 or 3 stops over box speed and it will not begin to compare with any negative film overexposed 2 or 3 stops. The inherent quality in negative film that enables it to do this is its low contrast. Any film has density limits that determine its dynamic range, and negative film with lower contrast reaches those limits at a much lower rate with increasing exposure than slide film therefore can handle more exposure before the density limits are reached. Also it is my understanding that the density capability of negative film is higher than slide film. Judging the dynamic range or any parameter of a film in a cross process is unreliable.
 
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lantau

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This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.

It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.

Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)
They are not the same film. Agfa made a maskless C41 film. And the CR was an E6 (aerial?) film.

I accidentally exposed Provia400x (120) at EI 50. When I noticed I continued at EI 400, thinking I'd sacrifice the earlier frames.

However, I decided to crossprocess in ECN2 chemicals and I can't say anymore where I changed exposure. As if it was a C41 film. It's the predetermined processing (unlike neg-pos which can/needs to be adjusted to the negatives exposure) together with the films character that limits the dynamic range.
 

Sirius Glass

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This is not correct. As I pointed out in my original post, there is no "standard" E-6 film with X stops of range. I have slides that accurately capture 10+ stops of range, while other E-6 films are lucky if they can record 5 stops. You just picked an example that works better for negative film.

It has long been a truism that you should "overexpose negative film". This is to get more image information into the shadows. An underexposed shadow on a negative will contain little to no image information so there is nothing to pull out even during printing. Just as an overexposed highlight on a slide will contain less image information. From what I have seen there is nothing inherent in either the C-41 films or process that creates a "higher dynamic range" than E-6. Although I will grant that the lower overall contrast of a negative may contribute to being able to pull out more detail during the printing.

Having used both the Rollei CN and CR films, they appear to be the same film. Cross processing the CN in E-6 chemistry doesn't give any more dynamic range than is produced by CR. (Note that there appears to be some history/mystery to the CR film. The older stuff had a problem with being yellow, but I recently shot some that has a nice neutral color palette.)

Please show how you get 10 stops of useful information from any slide film.

It is you who are incorrect. Again overexpose any slide film 3 stops over box speed and it will not begin to compare with any negative film overexposed 3 stops. The inherent quality in negative film that enables it to do this is its low contrast. Any film has density limits that determine its dynamic range, and negative film with lower contrast reaches those limits at a much lower rate with increasing exposure than slide film therefore can handle more exposure before the density limits are reached. Also it is my understanding that the density capability of negative film is higher than slide film. Judging the dynamic range or any parameter of a film in a cross process is unreliable.

I too would like to see how one can get 10 stops on any slide film. Can and have done that and more on negative films but slide film needs to be spot on the exposure.
 
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Ten+ stops of exposure with E6??
That doesn't pass the pub sniff test. Not at all.
 

Arklatexian

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Thirty and even forty years ago almost any color lab could make high quality color prints from slides. I know because I had many slides printed back then. Sometimes the print would be a little more contrasty but that was almost always acceptable. There were no heroics involved, just some time and some money.
Six or seven years ago, I bought an Epson V500 scanner and an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 printer just to make prints from 35mm Kodachromes, Ektachromes, Agfachrome CT18 slides. Quite frankly the prints, mostly 4x6 inch with occasionally a 5x7, were superior to the prints that I had previously had Kodak print for me from the same films in the "good old days". I had to quit because we ran out of room for the prints. I am not a fan of most D______L but I would not try to make color prints from slides any other way. Now making B&W prints from those slides is different......Regards!
 

RPC

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Six or seven years ago, I bought an Epson V500 scanner and an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 printer just to make prints from 35mm Kodachromes, Ektachromes, Agfachrome CT18 slides. Quite frankly the prints, mostly 4x6 inch with occasionally a 5x7, were superior to the prints that I had previously had Kodak print for me from the same films in the "good old days". I had to quit because we ran out of room for the prints. I am not a fan of most D______L but I would not try to make color prints from slides any other way. Now making B&W prints from those slides is different......Regards!

I am no expert on scanning but my guess is that slide scanner/printer software is designed to overcome at least some of the inherent problems with printing from slides such as contrast and dye impurity issues, while the same problems could have been overcome by Kodak or someone for much better looking prints back in the good old days by using masking or other techniques had you requested (and paid for) it.
 

Photo Engineer

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What kind of film are you using to create the internegative?

Kodak recommends Portra for internegatives. It is pull processed to give the proper contrast. I use 2' 45" or 3' to do the job. But, this is not as good as a true internegative.

PE
 

thuggins

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Please show how you get 10 stops of useful information from any slide film.

It is you who are incorrect. Again overexpose any slide film 2 or 3 stops over box speed and it will not begin to compare with any negative film overexposed 2 or 3 stops. The inherent quality in negative film that enables it to do this is its low contrast. Any film has density limits that determine its dynamic range, and negative film with lower contrast reaches those limits at a much lower rate with increasing exposure than slide film therefore can handle more exposure before the density limits are reached. Also it is my understanding that the density capability of negative film is higher than slide film. Judging the dynamic range or any parameter of a film in a cross process is unreliable.

I'm not here to "prove" anything to folks that won't put any effort into educating themselves. Especially those who insist on mischaracteriizing both my comments and the issue at hand.

You keep talk about over exposing slide film. My original post, and anywhere else that I've opined on the topic, made very clear that slide film needs to be correctly exposed. A half stop off EITHER WAY will be noticeable on a slide. One stop off EITHER WAY will ruin the image. But having a properly exposed image and the range that can be captured in that image are two entirely different things. I was also clear that there are some slide films with very restricted range that give black shadows with no image information; I even listed the names of some of them for you. But all slide films are not created equal. Both Provia and Ektachrome can capture remarkable shadow detail, easily covering ten stops or more with retrievable image information.

As for the Rollei film, I had read that this was an "aerial" film. I have also used that film and it is very yellow. You can find many posts here that make the same point. But the latest stuff is entirely different. The color palette is very natural and not overly saturated. The yellow tint is completely gone. Given the Rollei markets the stuff for cross processing it makes sense that it is the same film stock.
 

lantau

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But the latest stuff is entirely different. The color palette is very natural and not overly saturated. The yellow tint is completely gone. Given the Rollei markets the stuff for cross processing it makes sense that it is the same film stock.
Rollei C200N was supposed to be discontinued with remaining stock to last into 2017. It's it possible they are marketing something else as CN200, now? That would make it possible for both to be the same. I tried the CR200 and it went all yellow.

The CN200 I have is quite nice in C41. I bought 10 more rolls in 120 format around the EOL announcement. Haven't shot much of it so far, but it's interesting in its own way. And the developed emulsion has greyish tint, which an E6 film wouldn't. So maybe not entirely maskless.
 

wiltw

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Just as a reference back in history, to the year 2000, from an article in Shutterbug,
The Darkroom
Making Prints From Slides

Darryl C. Nicholas | Jun 1, 2000

"There are two methods of making prints from slides. One uses the paper and chemicals manufactured only by Ilford and known as Ilfochrome. The other uses paper and chemicals made by many different companies and referred to as Type R color positive paper and R-3000 chemistry. Due to space limitations, this article will deal only with the latter method....
"Type R Chemicals. There are two general types of chemicals for making prints from slides. One is referred to as Type R, and the other is Type R-3000. Both are Kodak terms, but all manufacturers make one version or the other.
Type R chemicals are generally aimed at the large professional lab market, and are only sold in relatively large volumes. It requires a white-light reversal after the first developer.
Type R-3000 is generally aimed at the amateur market. It is packaged in smaller volumes than Type R. Type R-3000 chemicals produce its reversal action through the use of a special additive in the color developer, thus not requiring a white-light reversal. Many different companies make chemicals that can be used for processing prints made from slides onto Type R paper.
When using any of the available chemical kits, the exact processing time and temperature are selectable. The temperature can usually vary between 70-100°F (21-38°C).​
"Tips For Printing
Prints from slides tend to be a compromise between the rich, saturated color of the transparency film and the proper tonal range that can be displayed on a reflective surface. Generally speaking, as you lower the contrast of the original transparency so that it can be fitted into the tonal range of reflective paper, the color saturation of the image is reduced. If this tonal range adjustment is not done correctly, the resulting print will be too high in contrast, with a loss of detail in either the shadows and highlights or both.

"Most slides will produce a pleasing compromise when printed onto most brands of Type R color positive paper. However, special masking techniques will be necessary for high contrast slides in order to produce a print with a pleasing tone range."
 

RPC

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I'm not here to "prove" anything to folks that won't put any effort into educating themselves. Especially those who insist on mischaracteriizing both my comments and the issue at hand.

You keep talk about over exposing slide film. My original post, and anywhere else that I've opined on the topic, made very clear that slide film needs to be correctly exposed. A half stop off EITHER WAY will be noticeable on a slide. One stop off EITHER WAY will ruin the image. But having a properly exposed image and the range that can be captured in that image are two entirely different things. I was also clear that there are some slide films with very restricted range that give black shadows with no image information; I even listed the names of some of them for you. But all slide films are not created equal. Both Provia and Ektachrome can capture remarkable shadow detail, easily covering ten stops or more with retrievable image information.

As for the Rollei film, I had read that this was an "aerial" film. I have also used that film and it is very yellow. You can find many posts here that make the same point. But the latest stuff is entirely different. The color palette is very natural and not overly saturated. The yellow tint is completely gone. Given the Rollei markets the stuff for cross processing it makes sense that it is the same film stock.

You said earlier that negative film does not have any inherent qualities that give it more dynamic range than slide film. That is absolutely incorrect and it is you who needs to be educated so I explained earlier that it does.

A film with a wide dynamic range does not require precise exposure as slide film does and a thus a film with a range of 10-12 stops would not require such a precise exposure as slide film does. It would have several stops of headroom to allow for exposure errors, to produce a quality image, nearly what negative film does, for almost any high brightness range scene one might encounter.
Slide films do not have such headroom due to much less range than negative film.
 
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NJH

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I think he is talking about scanning. As in one does the scan, the shadows look very dark so one boosts the shadows in post much as one would with a digital camera file. From my own experience my scans from Provia could have the shadows boosted at least as well as say files from the Leica M8 I used to have (but with less noise). The downsides are very poor shadow resolution IMHE. However there is a kicker. A scanned slide always seems to look more contrasty to me than it does when projected where the contrast looks fairly natural. To some extent boosting the shadows in post is only making the file look someway towards how it would look projected. Therefore what looks like an amazing shadow recovery is perhaps not that amazing really. Personally I reckon there is around 7 maybe 7.5 stops in Provia once recovered in post, I don't have any proof of that but would take some convincing of anyone claiming much more.
 

lantau

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I think he is talking about scanning. As in one does the scan, the shadows look very dark so one boosts the shadows in post much as one would with a digital camera file. From my own experience my scans from Provia could have the shadows boosted at least as well as say files from the Leica M8 I used to have (but with less noise). The downsides are very poor shadow resolution IMHE. However there is a kicker. A scanned slide always seems to look more contrasty to me than it does when projected where the contrast looks fairly natural. To some extent boosting the shadows in post is only making the file look someway towards how it would look projected. Therefore what looks like an amazing shadow recovery is perhaps not that amazing really. Personally I reckon there is around 7 maybe 7.5 stops in Provia once recovered in post, I don't have any proof of that but would take some convincing of anyone claiming much more.

I think you are right there. He was talking about recoverable shadow information. That is like pulling up the shadows in a digital raw file. Of course if you pull up the information in the very deep shadows and push them up into Zone V the result will be unpleasant. But it is there and in projection it might effectively be in Zone 0, while pulling it up into the barely visible range in digital (or any other available) post could give a meaningful result.

Flatbed scanners will have problems scanning the high densities in slides, but quality scanners and digicam scanning can get to that information.

I haven't got the experience to say if that will technically result in 10 stops, I would have guessed less, but with what little I have played around in the last two years I notice here on Photrio that there is a lot of prejudice in what is said about slides.

You said earlier that negative film does not have any inherent qualities that give it more dynamic range than slide film. That is absolutely incorrect and it is you who needs to be educated so I explained earlier that it does.

A film with a wide dynamic range does not require precise exposure as slide film does and a thus a film with a range of 10-12 stops would not require such a precise exposure as slide film does. It would have several stops of headroom to allow for exposure errors, to produce a quality image, nearly what negative film does, for almost any high brightness range scene one might encounter.
Slide films do not have such headroom due to much less range than negative film.

IMHO slide film itself has more reserves than you believe. Imagine a C41/RA4 system where the exposure time in the enlarger is fixed. You can only enlarge with 15s. And all the sudden the latitude of your in camera exposure goes away. It'd be the same as shooting slide. Does it mean you film has no inherent latitude?

I wrote above what amazing latitude Provia 400x has when developed as a negative. E.I50 vs E.I. 400 made not too much a difference in the resulting densities. Further more you can easily overexpose Provia by a stop or underexpose by two stops. Just tell your lab that you did so and have it pull or push processed and you'll end up with a perfect slide. If what you write above was true this would be impossible. That is the equivalent of changing exposure time in the enlarger step.

I'm sure that slide films have not been optimised as much as negative films towards latitude, because it isn't required to such a degree. But the lack of it mainly comes from the type of processing. The contrast of slide is necessary because that is the contrast you wand and need in the final product.

I have taken pictures in the harsh sun of Usbekistan recently and was surprised how much dynamic range Provia 100F has. And I even managed to shoot a high contrast scene in opposing light with deep shadows using Velvia 50. I took and incident light reading in a shaded area of the scene. I assumed the sky would be blown out, but it was ok. Of course there where no clouds. Blue sky is quite dark and works great with slide.

I took evening shots with Provia 400x with the same metering but slightly overcast sky and it completely blew out. I'm still learning. But it doesn't mean it cannot be done and the discussion about slide could be of better quality.

And another point I'd like to make about over and underexposure of negative film: On the one hand we keep on being told how great and important the orange mask is to neutralise dye impurities. And or course slide doesn't have that. But in some documents about Vision3 film Kodak says that under and overexposure leads to colour inaccuracies (the curves don't fit as well anymore is probably what they said). That means if you want to use negative film to its maximum potential you should expose spot on, just as you do with slide film.

In this age, for most people, if they wanted to have perfectly calibrated colour they wouldn't shoot film in the first place. I don't think people look at slides and think that they wished those dye impurities were corrected. Isn't that film look the whole point for still using it? So then I don't understand many of the arguments made agains slide. Yeah, you have to expose it just right, fair enough...
 

RPC

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And another point I'd like to make about over and underexposure of negative film: On the one hand we keep on being told how great and important the orange mask is to neutralise dye impurities. And or course slide doesn't have that. But in some documents about Vision3 film Kodak says that under and overexposure leads to colour inaccuracies (the curves don't fit as well anymore is probably what they said). That means if you want to use negative film to its maximum potential you should expose spot on, just as you do with slide film.

In a good color film the curves are parallel so additional exposure only moves the scene up the curves and with the curves remaining parallel, the color should not change. Only in gross overexposure, where image components hit the shoulder do we see inaccuracies. I routinely add a stop or two of additional exposure to my color negatives and see no change compared to normal exposure, thanks to the film's dynamic range.

In this age, for most people, if they wanted to have perfectly calibrated colour they wouldn't shoot film in the first place. I don't think people look at slides and think that they wished those dye impurities were corrected. Isn't that film look the whole point for still using it? So then I don't understand many of the arguments made agains slide. Yeah, you have to expose it just right, fair enough...

The dye impurities you speak of are not noticeable to any appreciable degree when they only appear once in an image. It is when they appear twice, such is in an optical print from a slide (seen in both film and paper) that color is degraded enough to be an issue. Looking directly at a slide, you only see them once and color is good. In a print from a negative the dye impurities have been masked so do not appear in the print, you only see them in the dyes of the paper, so appear only once and color is good. That other medium has its own set of issues that do not produce any better color IMO but I won't go in to that here.
 
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In this age, for most people, if they wanted to have perfectly calibrated colour they wouldn't shoot film in the first place. I don't think people look at slides and think that they wished those dye impurities were corrected.

What "dye impurities", and where??
But the first part of your statement is certainly correct!
 

RPC

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The dyes used in color photography have absorption irregularities that give less than perfect color. They are not really noticeable unless copied where the problem compounds and degradation is then noticeable. That is why color negatives, designed for printing, are masked because the mask effectively cancels the impurities so they are not transferred to a print.
 
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