Making Money in Photography

elmontanero · Jun 19, 2018

This topic has returned to me recently. I've returned to the Dark after 11years away, and I couldn't be more pleased with all that has come with it. Frustrating negatives, endless prints and problems, film transport problems with old cameras.
I'm also a working photographer that has his hand in digital when called to jobs. Two gigs recently that required me to complete them quickly and get fast turn over of the work for the clients. And I'm a high school photography teacher teaching both art and commercial courses.
At work and the school we have no option for darkrooms right now. It's been talked over at the school - even some support from the powers that be but no room or water out provisions. I don't really think when I do much of the digital work. It's work much like cleaning my house, "Okay, good that's done, it looks fine." But when I think about photography - I think in terms of what camera, what film, what lens- all of it traditionally now. I think about film lenses and what ones I'd like to have for a vision I'd like to complete.

There are still photographers using film - and using it well. I'm not sure it has to be relegated to the art schools. My students were working with lighting and imitating the masters.. They'd shoot/test/correct the details and then take their photo digitally... then I'd slip a Medium Format film camera in place on the tripod - the students would get quiet, they'd concentrate more than I've ever seen them do before. They'd make their adjustments, set exposure and focus manually and then be told, "you get only one shot."

They were transfixed when the Contact sheets came back, I printed the best of the pics to a simple 8x10. The students all wanted theirs printed too. Never the same as with digital. It might be an occasion within a professional curriculum, but I believe it's one that should not be overlooked. My professional work is much, much better when I'm working with film in my personal work.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 19, 2018

Great stuff. I bring college curriculum to High schools. Many of them have an old darkroom that is full of boxes of everyones' stuff but have not seen dektol in 15 years. I know one of the guys who set one of these up back in the '80s and even full of boxes today you can see how great it was. One of my HS co-teachers wants to turn it into a shooting studio. 20x30, demolish the enlarger stalls and get rid of the sink in the middle. Perfect!

I wonder if one conflates their experience as applied to film as caused by the film experience. I wonder why one cannot bring those skills to digital. I know that I do.

Cholentpot · Jun 19, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
As an instructor and athletic coach there is no holding back a motivated and talented subject. Students like this have courage and agility. I suggest that your friends who haven't groked film are neither. They are playing around. You aren't. THAT and subsequent success, are independent of format, emulsion or sensor.

These guys are pros getting jobs every night. However, take them out of their comfort zone and they are lost. Give them a different system and they can't deal with it. I tried to teach a buddy who does 3-4 weddings a week about back button focus. Nope. Mind you, this guy does some stellar work.

I got into photography because of photography. Others I know looked at the camera and saw a way to make money. To each their own but at the end of the day I'll still go out and shoot on my own time.

Bob Carnie · Jun 19, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
I see. Very cool. Sounds like a great program. with a real sense of craft. Whether it is applicable to the real world is less important than whether you can keep your numbers up to keep the administration happy. If they sign-up to do more work, that is gravy.
FWIW, I try as often as possible to use a students own work, no matter how modest, to start and further execute the process. Their buy-in values the lessons. But that is my style. Good luck.

That has always been holding me back,, but the last 5 years I get continually asked to do student placements, Running the business is complicated and I prefer not to see a student see me begging a client for past due money or me making excuses to my suppliers for the same.
Having them work on images I think is ok ( I have only had about 3 days with this concept) the simple production flow for them is the learning experience and by using my own images nobody gets hurt and we all benefit. Students get training, I get prints done .

Bob Carnie · Jun 19, 2018

Cholentpot said:
I'll chime in

As a relative youngster - at least on this site - who's only been shooting for income for about 6 months it's gonna be hands down digital.

However.

I spent the past 5 years eating, sleeping, dreaming, reading, watching photography. Every day multiple times reading forums, websites, videos, tutorials. I carried a heavy SLR everywhere to everything. I learned to develop my own B&W and C-41, I cobbled together a darkroom twice, I built my own scanning rig. I learned post processing analog and digital. When the bell rang to make money - which I answered very very reluctantly - I started with an entry level DSLR camera and slightly better lens. I quickly made enough to upgrade to a used older pro body and a very good lens.

Jump to now, 6 months late. I now get enough gigs to float my hobby and as of my last two shoots I've offered film as an extra and the client wanted it when they saw my results. Mind you it was for a tween and they wanted the film!

My 'useless' analog skills have taught me more than any of my peers who've never looked at film. I can shoot in any situation confidently with digital. I've learned scale focus, sunny 16, shooting from the waist, the zone system, shooting with care, having an eye for colorless, ignoring minor mistakes and issues, keeping people still and coping with misbehaving equipment. I would not be able to do what I'm doing without learning on cheap expired crappy bulk loaded film and a cranky camera twice my age. Since 2013 when I started I've shot and developed over 300 rolls of film. From unknown rolls to rare and exciting emulsions. I've tried over 10 formats and almost a dozen developers. I mixed my own up from scratch and screwed up more rolls and pants then I can count. I've failed miserably and won amazingly. I've done what millions have done before me and some things of what no-one has ever done.

This is a bottomless learning experience that I'm still wrapping my brain around. I'll never be a pro in my mind only a student along for the ride.

Good for you, remember your last line ... it will come back and haunt you , I am now 65 and have been at this since 1973 and I still feel like a beginner, this photography thing we all seem to love is deep.

Cholentpot · Jun 19, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Good for you, remember your last line ... it will come back and haunt you , I am now 65 and have been at this since 1973 and I still feel like a beginner, this photography thing we all seem to love is deep.

It goes farther than just a medium. Honestly film is just another brush in my box. I also keep telling myself I'm only doing this for money until I don't need the money. Yeah...

Berkeley Mike · Jun 19, 2018

Cholentpot said:
These guys are pros getting jobs every night. However, take them out of their comfort zone and they are lost. Give them a different system and they can't deal with it. I tried to teach a buddy who does 3-4 weddings a week about back button focus. Nope. Mind you, this guy does some stellar work.

I got into photography because of photography. Others I know looked at the camera and saw a way to make money. To each their own but at the end of the day I'll still go out and shoot on my own time.

I work with a lot of fairly advanced shooters and have found that there is generally a main focus of their skill set that has taken them "this far." At some point an interest brings them to our advanced classes. What I have learned is that there are a number of holes in their body of skills and knowledge. The key is to find their strengths and build on them to fill those up.
As someone who is self-taught it has taken me awhile to appreciate curriculum, a structured setting, and a no-harm no-foul setting in which to practice and acquire new skills. Not everyone can just be handed a new piece of gear or a process and take off.
That said, I have faculty who think that teaching is filling the air with enormous amounts of info, most of which will never be used. I get their students and they don't know the basics when you put a camera in their hands.

Cholentpot · Jun 19, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
I work with a lot of fairly advanced shooters and have found that there is generally a main focus of their skill set that has taken them "this far." At some point an interest brings them to our advanced classes. What I have learned is that there are a number of holes in their body of skills and knowledge. The key is to find their strengths and build on them to fill those up.
As someone who is self-taught it has taken me awhile to appreciate curriculum, a structured setting, and a no-harm no-foul setting in which to practice and acquire new skills. Not everyone can just be handed a new piece of gear or a process and take off.
That said, I have faculty who think that teaching is filling the air with enormous amounts of info, most of which will never be used. I get their students and they don't know the basics when you put a camera in their hands.

One piece of info at a time for me. Too much and it's just noise.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 19, 2018

People learn one thing at a time.

jtk · Jun 19, 2018

I've noticed that "student work" in big shows consistently displays far more challenging emotional and conceptual..and beautiful...work when the work is categorized as digital or "alternative" than when gelatin silver..

I think that gelatin silver work is as good as it would have been decades ago...but that today's more creative, harder-working type of student doesn't bother with it. I think that's because the digital and alternative kids are more demanding and better educated in our art/craft than their parents were. This is all to the good.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 19, 2018

I have noticed that my high school students are far more adventurous then my older college students. They bang upright against dynamic range and color balance, in manual settings of course. Some of them have a naturalize in some of them need some education around that but there primitive aggression is a marvel.

faberryman · Jun 19, 2018

jtk said:
I've noticed that "student work" in big shows consistently displays far more challenging emotional and conceptual..and beautiful...work when the work is categorized as digital or "alternative" than when gelatin silver..

I think that gelatin silver work is as good as it would have been decades ago...but that today's more creative, harder-working type of student doesn't bother with it. I think that's because the digital and alternative kids are more demanding and better educated in our art/craft than their parents were. This is all to the good.

I believe the general consensus is that silver gelatin printing, once the norm, has become an alternate process.

Berkeley Mike · Jun 19, 2018

I don't know about the general consensus but I like that characterization a lot. I have come to believe that film is a more advanced form of photography. That is the kinds of skills one needs to get the best out of film all happen before you pick up the film. Those skills in place the exercise of learning about film is far more effective, simpler, and more rewarding. That it takes its place with cyanotype, daguerreotype, salt prints and the like dignifies film as a discipline.

jtk · Jul 15, 2018

fwiw, I think "photographers" who cannot write usefully are unlikely to photograph usefully. Some photographers get diverted into photo technics, but they tend to miss the mark with respect to significance of images. Photo technics are simple, though often extended, linear activities. As such they tend to displace significance.

Bob Carnie · Jul 15, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
I don't know about the general consensus but I like that characterization a lot. I have come to believe that film is a more advanced form of photography. That is the kinds of skills one needs to get the best out of film all happen before you pick up the film. Those skills in place the exercise of learning about film is far more effective, simpler, and more rewarding. That it takes its place with cyanotype, daguerreotype, salt prints and the like dignifies film as a discipline.

Actually I think that having a good background in film photography and a good background with digital photography makes one a more advanced practitioner in Photography, the combination of both studies just makes one more versatile and I think aware.

Bob Carnie · Jul 15, 2018

jtk said:
fwiw, I think "photographers" who cannot write usefully are unlikely to photograph usefully. Some photographers get diverted into photo technics, but they tend to miss the mark with respect to significance of images. Photo technics are simple, though often extended, linear activities. As such they tend to displace significance.

The schools have pumped out thousands of Curators over the last 10 years who can write and speak at a much higher level than me. We are now in the age of words of photography rather than storytelling with images. I hope someday a LIFE style of magazine gets a new life and we can go back to using cameras and light to send a message.

jtk · Jul 15, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Actually I think that having a good background in film photography and a good background with digital photography makes one a more advanced practitioner in Photography, the combination of both studies just makes one more versatile and I think aware.

Can't argue with that, although "advanced" and "versatile" are not nearly as important as "aware." As well, with the passage of time "good background in film photography" has become a lot less important than imagination....which does relate to awareness.

Also, I think non-graphic "disciplines" such as video, journalism, spoken word, and theatre easily rival "advanced" and "versatile." Thinking here of promotional photographic work, such as around "Hamilton."

Berkeley Mike · Jul 15, 2018

jtk said:
fwiw, I think "photographers" who cannot write usefully are unlikely to photograph usefully. Some photographers get diverted into photo technics, but they tend to miss the mark with respect to significance of images. Photo technics are simple, though often extended, linear activities. As such they tend to displace significance.

The Photo department gets a different kind of student than the rest of the college. We rarely get the well-rounded traditional student who is looking to transfer on to the next level. We get some people from the community who are interested, may or may not have skills, who find a fulfilling place with us. Remarkably common are students who neither read no write well. What draws them to photography is the ability to communicate without words.

jtk · Jul 16, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
The Photo department gets a different kind of student than the rest of the college. We rarely get the well-rounded traditional student who is looking to transfer on to the next level. We get some people from the community who are interested, may or may not have skills, who find a fulfilling place with us. Remarkably common are students who neither read no write well. What draws them to photography is the ability to communicate without words.

I was a student at Oakland City College, Merit Campus. You probably know it. Great, mostly black school, arguably the birthplace of Black Panther Party. As a white guy with relatively comfortable roots, I certainly honor what you say about the potential and merit of people lacking reading/writing skills.

I barely know anything about "Photo Departments" but I do know something about "photography" as she is writ in the world, and as she has long been being written into the future. My guess is that photo students would be better off redefining themselves looking forward, perhaps focusing on video production.

Strongly suggest the work of Agnes Varda and JR as seen on Netflix (far better than wall-hanging galleries) . JR, as you know, has traveled the world pasting giant portraits on buildings... students would love that kind of thing but teachers might not.

On Netflix see Faces Places. (partially produced by MOMA) From western civilization perspective, not having access to Netflix is like not having been to NYC or Paris. That'd be unfortunate. It's equally unfortunate for me that I've not spent time in Tokyo.

https://www.amazon.com/Faces-Places-Agnès-Varda-JR/dp/B077RC1F19/ref=pd_sbs_74_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B077RC1F19&pd_rd_r=87a0ce51-8903-11e8-aded-
f58ee0318b53&pd_rd_w=ZfdkO&pd_rd_wg=04phM&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=5825442648805390339&pf_rd_r=MR9BWC9DEGVV5DT85YCS&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=MR9BWC9DEGVV5DT85YCS

jtk · Jul 16, 2018

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-19/agn-s-varda-and-jr-are-strange-bedfellows

jtk · Jul 16, 2018

https://www.jr-art.net/

jtk · Jul 16, 2018

How do these people make money?

There's at least one example of a commission for JR in an elegant restaurant...but I think he has patrons, which has long been traditional for artists.

"But however successfully JR's installations work as art, they have a social conscience, too. In Kibera the photographs of women on the rooftops were printed on to vinyl so that their homes would be waterproof. The sheets of corrugated iron used in another part of the shanty town were distributed afterwards to those who had taken part. Last April JR returned to Rio to set up a cultural centre in the heart of the favela. All of the money he makes from the sale of his work – in 2009 a print of one of JR's most famous photos, "Ladj Ly", sold at auction for £26,250, and he has just sold an image to Damon Albarn for the cover of the forthcoming Africa Express album – is ploughed back into his projects so that JR can ensure his continued independence. "The finance is a key part," he says. "You wouldn't take it in the same way if I did it with L'Oréal."

Agnes Varda has shot/produced at least a half dozen successful movies...ie European cinema.

Colin Corneau · Jul 16, 2018

jtk said:
I was a student at Oakland City College, Merit Campus. You probably know it. Great, mostly black school, arguably the birthplace of Black Panther Party. As a white guy with relatively comfortable roots, I certainly honor what you say about the potential and merit of people lacking reading/writing skills.

I barely know anything about "Photo Departments" but I do know something about "photography" as she is writ in the world, and as she has long been being written into the future. My guess is that photo students would be better off redefining themselves looking forward, perhaps focusing on video production.

Strongly suggest the work of Agnes Varda and JR as seen on Netflix (far better than wall-hanging galleries) . JR, as you know, has traveled the world pasting giant portraits on buildings... students would love that kind of thing but teachers might not.

On Netflix see Faces Places. (partially produced by MOMA) From western civilization perspective, not having access to Netflix is like not having been to NYC or Paris. That'd be unfortunate. It's equally unfortunate for me that I've not spent time in Tokyo.

https://www.amazon.com/Faces-Places-Agnès-Varda-JR/dp/B077RC1F19/ref=pd_sbs_74_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B077RC1F19&pd_rd_r=87a0ce51-8903-11e8-aded-
f58ee0318b53&pd_rd_w=ZfdkO&pd_rd_wg=04phM&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=5825442648805390339&pf_rd_r=MR9BWC9DEGVV5DT85YCS&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=MR9BWC9DEGVV5DT85YCS

I LOVED "Faces Places" !!!

Colin Corneau · Jul 16, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
The schools have pumped out thousands of Curators over the last 10 years who can write and speak at a much higher level than me. We are now in the age of words of photography rather than storytelling with images. I hope someday a LIFE style of magazine gets a new life and we can go back to using cameras and light to send a message.

Amen to that. The most eloquent words on photography is, at the end of the day, one person's opinion only.

A profound photograph is a dozen different stories to each and every person that views it...no contest.

MattKing · Jul 16, 2018

Colin Corneau said:
Amen to that. The most eloquent words on photography is, at the end of the day, one person's opinion only.

A profound photograph is a dozen different stories to each and every person that views it...no contest.

I'll quibble with this in one way only.
A really perceptive critic/curator can add context, and context can definitely enrich the experience of looking at a photograph.
"Migrant Mother" would be a good photograph no matter what the context, but when you add the context ....

Making Money in Photography

Does it make more sense to train to make money in Film or Digital Photography?

Film Photography

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elmontanero

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Does it make more sense to train to make money in Film or Digital Photography?

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