Making 11x14 holders

[Jim Chinn]

I have posted in a previous thread that I had made some custom 11x14 holders for an 11x14 camera I am building. These holders were actually quite easy to make, inexpensive, very light and rugged.

The construction was basically a center piece of 1/8th lexan with a cherry frame.
The frame has a slot routed for the darkslide about 1/16th above the film plane and a slot about 1mm wide just above the lexan to hold the film in place. This is done on both sides of the lexan to provide for a double holder. The difference between this and a standard holder is there is no flap to load the film.
to load, you pull the darkslide and set the film in from above. Slide the film under one groove, slightly bow to fit under other side and slide down to fit bottom groove. A thin piece of brass snaps into place at the top. A pair of light baffles for when the darkslide is pulled and your done. Much better way to load a large piece of film IMHO..

My back is quite different from standard backs. To save weight my camera utilizes a U-shaped channel that contains holder and gg. A leaf spring in the channel holds the ground glass in place and has enough give to slide the holder in front of the ground glass frame. The gg frame is the same as a film holder so when the gg is shifted back the film plane is in the exact same position. This design allows me to use aluminum for the frame and support, foregoing the need for a wood back that has to be heavy enough to attach and support some farily hefty springs.

The other advantage with this back is you don't have to be pulling on the gg frame with one hand and trying to load film with the other, unless you are lucky enough to have a bail on your camera.

But upon further thinking, I would like to try to make a similar holder that would work in standard 11x14 backs. I unfortunatley do not have a standard 11x14 back. I would greatly appreciate if someone could measure one of theirs and post the dimensions. I need to know:

overall length, width and thickness.

the length from the end of the holder to the "rib" that helps lock it in place.

And if you have a micrometer, the depth from the face of the holder to film plane surface.

If I can come up with something promising I'll send a finished one to whoever provides the info to evaluate and test.

thanks for any info in advance.

 

[Jim Chinn]

Sorry I don't need the back measured, I meant to ask for film holder measurements.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I would look up the ANSI standard, if I were you, but here are the measurements of my holders:

Width=12-15/16"
Lock rib to end=16-1/16" (measured from the side of the rib facing the darkslide handle, which is the critical side)
Film depth=0.318" (or 5/16"+.005 using vernier calipers and a sheet of Tri-X in the holder, so not the most accurate thing).

Overall thickness is 3/4", but that's not absolutely critical.

Now this is a wooden holder, and I would not be too surprised if it's not exactly to spec. The holders were about 1/16" too long for my back at first, and the back is older than the ANSI standard, so I adapted the back to the holders. I would bet you that the ANSI standard is W=13", L=16", and D=5/16". If the lock rib-to-end distance is a tiny bit on the short side, that's not a big problem, but if it's too long, then the holder won't sit right.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

More thoughts on film depth: Film was thicker in the old days, it would seem to me, and not all modern film is the same thickness. Film depth is the most critical dimension, and yet we haven't really adjusted the holders for modern films, though I have heard of people having their holders or back milled or shimmed for greater precision. A quick measurement of my groundglass depth is a bit closer to 5/16" exactly, maybe a little more, but of course this is a wooden back that's over 100 years old, so a few thousandths for wear, shrinkage, humidity, etc. wouldn't be surprising.

 

[Donald Miller]

I agree with David. The most critical dimension is the so called "T" dimension. This is the dimension that measures the distance of the surface of the film depth to the "flange" of the film holder. This dimension must correspond to your ground glass depth in order for the film focus to correspond to the ground glass focus. This depth must be very precise (on the order of thousands of an inch). I believe that I saw a post that someone, maybe you, had made yesterday about building film holders. Sandy King (S&S film holders) had responded to that post and indicated that it was more difficult to build film holders then to build a camera. I would agree with that assessment.

 

[Jim Chinn]

Thanks for the replies. When you are making the film holder, and the gg frame and the back, the T-dimension is what ever you want it to be. But from reading some very old threads on rec.photo forums there is quite a difference between older holders, newer holders as far as T-dimension is concerned and even the depth of flange to film. The discussion basically concluded that you always should check older holders or different brands to make sure they are consistent with the lens to gg plane distance for your camera. Those that found discrepencies easily shimmed the holders or the back to make accomodations.

So with David's measurements I"ll start doing some fiddling. I hope to find an 11x14 back on Ebay that maybe I can get on the cheap to use for testing.

Anyway, film holders are basically the same as they were 75 years ago. Maybe all alternatives have been tried and that is why we keep making them the same way. But I find it hard to believe that an alternative (perhaps not as light or pretty as wood) cannot be just as rugged and accurate and maybe easier to use for somewhat less than $300-$400.

Or maybe we need to design camera backs that accept a new style holder. But anyway, a good project to work on when the weather keeps me from shooting.

 

[Donald Miller]

For an alternative to conventional film holder design, you might check out the AWB site. He has made up some 16X20 holders for a photographer who had built his own camera. These were of a clamshell design in which the darkslide didn't need to be removed to load or unload film. Consequently there was no hinge and tape to be a problem at some later date. These appeared to be fairly straightforward in design, however they were made of metal and would require machines different from the woodworking equipment needed for a camera. Maybe this will give you some new ideas. Good luck.

 

[Neanderman]

I have the ANSI standard:

Overall length: 16.188" min
Overall width: 13.000" max, 12.295 min
Thickness: 0.790" max

The length from the end of the holder to the "rib": 16.160 max, 16.125 min
(That is to the ouside, or vertical, side of the rib. The rib itself is 0.154" +/- 0.005" on the flat, with an angle of 45 +/- 5 deg. The rib stands 0.061" +/- 0.015" above the face of the holder.

The depth from the face of the holder to film plane surface (septum): 0.332 +/- 0.006"

The septum is to be 0.050 thick; the clearance between the septum and the bottom of the rib that holds the film flat is 0.012 min. The rib that holds the film is to be 0.250".

The overall exposed area of the film is 13.530" min x 10.438" min.

Note that these dimensions are for 11 x 14 holders ONLY.

 

[Loose Gravel]

I remember Doug Busch designed a film holder for ultra large films and the nice thing about them was that the holder held the film flat. When the film was loaded, something came loose in the center (under the film) and the film was then loaded as usual. Putting the whole thing back together, wedged the back or center, behind the film, up tight. The film was held between the back (behind film) and the edges that are towards the lens. Then if you took a picture with camera pointing down, the film did not sag. Does that make any sense at all?

There were not light in weight.

 

[mark]

Neanderman,

Where did you get the ANSI standard. This is something I have always wondered. Is there a place to get such a thing.

 

[sanking]

Neanderman,

Where did you get the ANSI standard. This is something I have always wondered. Is there a place to get such a thing.

Actually there is a min and max to the ANSI standards that Donald posted. I will post them to the list later.

Also, Great Bassin made holders without a flap. This eliminates a potential light leak but in practice many people found them difficult to load without crimping the film. And that varied according to film size, but they made the hodlers in at least three sizes, 5X12, 7X17 and 12X20.

Sandy King

 

[sanking]

I remember Doug Busch designed a film holder for ultra large films and the nice thing about them was that the holder held the film flat. When the film was loaded, something came loose in the center (under the film) and the film was then loaded as usual. Putting the whole thing back together, wedged the back or center, behind the film, up tight. The film was held between the back (behind film) and the edges that are towards the lens. Then if you took a picture with camera pointing down, the film did not sag. Does that make any sense at all?

There were not light in weight.

This was in my opinion one of those times when the solution was worth than the problem. The idea was good but in practice the holders were very difficult to load.

Sandy King

 

[sanking]

I would greatly appreciate if someone could measure one of theirs and post the dimensions. I need to know:

overall length, width and thickness.

the length from the end of the holder to the "rib" that helps lock it in place.

And if you have a micrometer, the depth from the face of the holder to film plane surface.

If I can come up with something promising I'll send a finished one to whoever provides the info to evaluate and test.

thanks for any info in advance.

The ANSI standards for 11X14 film holders for the three critical dimesions are:

Width =B
B max = 13.000"
B min = 12.925"

End of flap to beginning of rib lock = G
G max = 16.160"
G min = 16.125"

Center of septum to edge of film holder = T
T = 0.332" =/- 0.006"
T should equal the displacement of the ground glass plus thickness of the film.

Sandy King

 

[Neanderman]

Sorry, been busy and hadn't logged on lately.

I got my copy of the ANSI standard from my Public Library. The standard is ANSI/PIMA IT3.108-1998.

The full title is: American national standard for photography (cameras) : double film holders (lock-rib type)-- dimensions

The previous standard was: ANSI PH3.108.1988. And prior to that, it was: ANSI PH3.26-1951. There may have been earlier ones as well.

I have a copy of the 1988 standard, but have not yet been able to find the 1951 standard. I am still looking...

 

[Gustavo_Castilla]

Can you send me the Info? on the holders and your camera?

 

[Curt]

Hello Jim,
I just wrote a big message and whiff it was lost to cyber space.
Anyway, I am going to make some 11x14 film holders in cherry for my son who is going to build an 11x14 view camera for a graduation requirement. My dad is giving me an old holder, graflex I think, and I will soon have the dimensions I need. At any rate that's if I want to make one to the ANSI standard. Otherwise any dimensions would work as long as the film plane and the GG agree with T-dimension. I like your design, it sounds like a stable one. How did you make the 1mm and slots? Did you use a slitting arbor saw? I was going to use my shaper to run the cherry for the slots. Pictures?
Best regards,
Curt

 

[Gustavo_Castilla]

Hi David how are things?
I wonder if you have some photos of your 1114 camera and holder you can send me I am looking to convert a Kodak Century or a No 2 to 1114 any tought or Ideas that may be of help ??
If the camreas can not be converted I will list them here But I will love to get your comments

 

[Bill Mobbs]

Where did you get the ANSI standard. This is something I have always wondered. Is there a place to get such a thing.

Here is the link to The ANSI Page. I think there is a fee for downloads.
http://www.ansi.org/

 

[MichaelBriggs]

ANSI dimensions of filmholders (sizes 2x3 to 14x17) have been posted to the web by Edward Hoover: http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/filmhold.html. This source gives the tolerance only for the depth to the film, the "T" dimension. And I think one description is a bit off: "depth to film surface" of 0.197 inches (5.00 mm) for a 4x5 holder is the depth to the septum without film.

So you want the ground glass to be closer to the lens by the thickness of the film (or a few thousandths less, splitting the thickness of the light sensitive portion of the film).