Major Announcement: APUG future development plans

[RattyMouse]

Such an incredible amount of fuss just to placate a handful of people.

WRONG. If you read Sean's post the fuss is to grow his business.

 

[Diapositivo]

One thing we were toying with is a search results page that is tabbed for each area, so for example you only have APUG enabled and search on "enlarged negative", your main results page are results for APUG, but there would be other tabs behind that which appear such as "hybrid (18)" "DPUG (2)" which would indicate some results may have been found outside of your chosen area.

I think this should be the retained form for search results, without giving the possibility to disable search results in other sections.
Ordering search results according to personal preferences gives the best of both worlds: it makes very easy to read search results selectively, while not undergoing the risk to hide a search result which is present on the site and which might be very relevant to the question.

Regarding policing the site, I think in general passing reference to other technologies, especially pointing to some sources, are always very useful also when "off topic". What disturbs a topic is the hi-jacking of the entire topic.

A solution might be to get into the habit of using the blue colour for a passing reference to an off-topic matter.

Another way to solve this problem would be through hybrid means, you find a description on this topic: Dead Link Removed

Blue means: I think it's useful to make a passing reference in this topic, but please keep in mind it's OT, open a new thread if you are interested in discussing it in depth.

Small deviations from the topic are necessarily to be allowed in a normal thread. I remember an Italian forum where the co-moderator behaved like a little Hister seeing off-topics everywhere and deleting everything, it was a very clear demonstration of the proverb saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Just my 2 Eurocents.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

In general, moderation is light at APUG. We don't have the resources to look at everything, and brief off-topic references are not an issue. If an entire thread becomes about the techniques and methods of scanning and digital post-production, then we'll moderate the thread.

 

[TheToadMen]

Other options are for the end user to use both content control systems. As you know right now you can "ignore forum". The ignore forum will still exist so another option is to enable APUG & Hybrid yet "ignore" those few hybrid forums which may be too digital oriented.

I was wondering: is this issue only an all analogue thing? I mean, when (if ever) will a digital thread (on DPUG) be moved to the hybrid forum due to shifting too much into analogue?
Can we accept some digital talk if it is supporting to the analogue issue at hand before it is automatically send over to hybrid - as soon as the word "scanner" or "digital internegative" is used?

 

[alanrockwood]

Let us hope the re-organization helps. I subscribed for a (relatively short) time, but I let my subscription lapse and have not renewed for personal reasons.

With regard to hybrid photo discussions, the hybridphoto/dpug area is currently relatively moribund, and has been for a long time. Here at APUG itself I find attitudes here to be (for the most part) relatively prudish with respect to digital photo processes, hybrid photo processes, or even digital devices or techniques used to aid in the production of purely analog images, but that is the choice of the owners of the site, and, being the owners, that is their right.

Nevertheless, it looks like the owners are making a real effort to achieve two goals, i.e. better finances and making some kind of accommodation for those whose interests extend beyond analog photography, so let us wish them well in those efforts.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Alan, as interesting as those topics may be to some, the problem was that every time discussions about them were allowed on APUG, an obnoxious chorus of a few people would start pro-hybrid and pro-digital rants would start posting negative comments about film, the users of film, how much better digital is better than analog, ... . The moderators and Sean repeatedly worked with the offenders and it would get worse. It has happened within the last year yet again. After many many attempts, the only workable solution is the separation that we now have. If the digital users would have just been respectful adults, the problems would not have come up. So enough is enough is enough.

 

[Julie McLeod]

Alan, as interesting as those topics may be to some, the problem was that every time discussions about them were allowed on APUG, an obnoxious chorus of a few people would start pro-hybrid and pro-digital rants would start posting negative comments about film, the users of film, how much better digital is better than analog, ... . The moderators and Sean repeatedly worked with the offenders and it would get worse. It has happened within the last year yet again. After many many attempts, the only workable solution is the separation that we now have. If the digital users would have just been respectful adults, the problems would not have come up. So enough is enough is enough.

I'm new but have been a very avid reader of the forum for a year or so and value it greatly. I've got no basis on which to form an opinion on the going-ons here before I arrived so take the great analog-hybrid-digital divide for what it is. But I am curious about your penultimate sentence there - was it just the digital users who behaved badly?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Generally, the digital users would start with the snarky comments or posting things that are against the APUG guidelines. When someone would comment that XXX was against the rules for the website, the rudeness would start.

 

[removed account4]

I'm new but have been a very avid reader of the forum for a year or so and value it greatly. I've got no basis on which to form an opinion on the going-ons here before I arrived so take the great analog-hybrid-digital divide for what it is. But I am curious about your penultimate sentence there - was it just the digital users who behaved badly?

julie

there are plenty of people who are film-only who have acted poorly.

 

[Julie McLeod]

Generally, the digital users would start with the snarky comments or posting things that are against the APUG guidelines. When someone would comment that XXX was against the rules for the website, the rudeness would start.

Okay, thanks for the detail. I guess I just don't get why people on either side of the debate would act like that. Rules are rules, like them or not.

julie

there are plenty of people who are film-only who have acted poorly.

Thank you.

 

[Leigh B]

there are plenty of people who are film-only who have acted poorly.

We flat-landers have as much right to mis-behave as the round-eyes.

That being "none".

- Leigh

 

[MartinP]

I had to stop my subscription for (lack of) work reasons, but will try very hard to find enough to pay for the next year in order to assist in the survival of Apug.

Separation of working methods is wise. I have seen once before an analog forum opening up and being swamped by large numbers of immature, entitled and arrogant new members in search of novelty. The tide eventually subsided, but most of the original members had left after a couple of years of abuse plus ignorant and repetitive questions. The forum pretty much died and may indeed have closed by now.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I had to stop my subscription for (lack of) work reasons, but will try very hard to find enough to pay for the next year in order to assist in the survival of Apug.

Separation of working methods is wise. I have seen once before an analog forum opening up and being swamped by large numbers of immature, entitled and arrogant new members in search of novelty. The tide eventually subsided, but most of the original members had left after a couple of years of abuse plus ignorant and repetitive questions. The forum pretty much died and may indeed have closed by now.

Your words describing the hoards of digisnappers is just much too kind.

 

[MartinP]

Your words describing the hoards of digisnappers is just much too kind.

Actually, they were indeed often seeking analog enlightenment, but many from a position of utter incomprehension. I pitied the staff in Lomography shops, though perhaps it was them suggesting the forum link? In any case it was by no means all the new people and some were recognised as already having worn out their welcome elsewhere.

Edit: I have now re-subscribed at a higher than minimum rate. Smug me.

 

[TheToadMen]

I had to stop my subscription for (lack of) work reasons, but will try very hard to find enough to pay for the next year in order to assist in the survival of Apug.

You're in luck. I still wanted to give someone a subscription as a gift and it became you. Enjoy another year!

 

[MartinP]

You're in luck. I still wanted to give someone a subscription as a gift and it became you. Enjoy another year!

Thank you Bert - as I was posting, above, I was trying to resurrect my Paypal account and I eventually paid for a subscription with a receipt time of 23:36, 4th.January. Hopefully my subscription arrived in the Apug system before your generous offer?

I don't know how we can tell actually, though I did get an auto-message from Sean (with the same timestamp as Paypal) making no mention of a gift-upgrade. Did you get a message saying that I was already a subscriber? It would be a bit unfortunate if you have accidentally provided me with a subscription for 2018!

Again though, thank you for your kind thought.

 

[Sean]

Thanks guys! I can alter a gift sub or refund if needed, just let me know.

 

[TheToadMen]

Thanks guys! I can alter a gift sub or refund if needed, just let me know.

Hi Sean, give the refund to Martin.
Thanks.
Bert

 

[Helinophoto]

Separation of working methods is wise. I have seen once before an analog forum opening up and being swamped by large numbers of immature, entitled and arrogant new members in search of novelty. The tide eventually subsided, but most of the original members had left after a couple of years of abuse plus ignorant and repetitive questions. The forum pretty much died and may indeed have closed by now.

I can see that side of things, but remember that a lot of the younger crowd shooting film these days, rarely work with enlargers, at least, fewer of them do, therefore it will be natural that many people that actually shoot film and have questions, scan their films, or get their films processed in labs, which scans and/or print.

I only use my enlarger during the winter (this time of year), because it's not a whole lot of shooting to be done, due to the fading light. (also a good routine to shoot for a while and print for a while).
- but, as just about everyone who post photos to the galleries here, I also scan, so it is inevitably linked.

One doesn't have to like it, but that's how is has been since the 2000's or so I think.

Any newcomer coming in here in the past, not really realizing how analog APUG really was/is, could easily stump their foot right in the puddle of mud and tempers would flare. (old members going off and newcomers being insulted and rude, especially if the thread was closed with no warning).

I think it's awesome that APUG merge dpug into the sub-forums here.
This way, threads that was previously closed/deleted, can be shuffled into the correct sub-forum. Many previously closed threads do have a lot of valuable information and some of them could even be sticky for that reason.
Being able to filter out such threads is also nice, then people who cannot be bothered with this, will have a nice time here as well.

IMO it's win-win, APUG needs members and subscribers to survive, the new crowd is younger and maybe sometimes a little immature, but at least they are buying film and in time, they might even subscribe to APUG and even start using enlargers. ^^

 

[Helinophoto]

Also, to give a reverse view on the issue related to the search and information spread over analog and digital:

I had to ask over at rangefinderforum about an issue I had with some c-41 scans that I really could not understand. This thread is quite long, but does debug both the procedure around c-41 development (procedure, age of chemicals etc) and also possible issues concerning the scanning.
After much debate and back and fourth, people chiming in, posting examples, explaining, the problem seemed to straddle both analog and digital/scanning; The negatives were too thick (due to my sloppy procedure) and the typical scanner we use today, cannot cope properly with that, so it produced artifacts, this issue was explain by one "from the other side" of the analog realm.

So anyone googling that will learn a lot about both c-41 development as well as scanning.
(one should never talk about thread without linking to it, so, for anyone interested, here it is http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154498 )

I am not sure what my point was, other than that a forum that is a little more lenient, also attracts more people and the discussions, albeit often far from the pure expertise on analog that can be found on APUG, is extremely helpful and full of knowledgeable people coming from various fields and experience.

The filter-option is a must-have, I respect that there are many people who have no interest in, or would never like to see or hear about hybrid/digital.

 

[removed account4]

I have seen once before an analog forum opening up and being swamped by large numbers of immature, entitled and arrogant new members in search of novelty.

i don't know, in about 20-22 years i've seen exactly the opposite

Actually, they were indeed often seeking analog enlightenment, but many from a position of utter incomprehension

i think everyone comes to something new from a position of ignorance.

 

[Wallendo]

I am hopeful the changes will be acceptable to all. I suspect the main issue will be that of thread drift (something that never happens on APUG). As a thread drifts towards a hybrid process, will the entire thread be moved? Will the thread be split?

There are a lot of us here using hybrid methods. I hope to have my darkroom up and running in the next several months (free time is currently at a premium), but still use commercial labs for color film and currently only develop B&W negatives. That being said, APUG is still my primary resource for camera, lens, film, and developer discussion. I have simply adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy to what I do with my negatives when posting on APUG, just as I don't express my political or religious opinions. I also avoid digital and scanner forums as most of those have been over-run by "gear heads" and brand fanboys. Most scanner threads degenerate into Canon vs. Epson or flatbed vs. dedicated scanner arguments. Digital camera thread devolve into arguments to sell a 12 month old camera to replace it with the new model offering 1% more features for only 25% more than the previous model.

I don't know if DPUG will ever be nearly as successful as APUG, but look forward to the changes planned.

 

[Sean]

Hi All, I am closing this thread but will use it for progress reports:

Current status of the development:

Still in progress but essentially went on hold a bit due to finances and needing to recover a bit before continuing. This has caused delays and the timeline for rolling this project out is likely to be slower than I hoped. That being said things are looking good for a lot of new photrio work going in this Feb. This project WILL happen and is my top priority for the first half of 2017. I know many who are excited about it so thanks for your patience, I want to make sure we get it right.

 

[Sean]

quick update:

Since we need to clone most of APUG to test the full rollout, an additional dedicated server has been ordered today for a full blown development/testing environment. This should be ready in a day or two. Several core components of photrio are ready to test as well this coming week such as: core xenforo code updates, new styling changes and core styling code upgrades, 3 addons which deal with content control and some other misc items.

 

[Sean]

update for those following this:

The dedicated development server is running the 1st build of photrio. Still a lot to do but progress is steady.